Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...

[Andre Marc]

Amen to that. I have heard far too many of these very expensive paint pealer speakers at shows and have left the rooms shaking my head. I have heard some great sounding uber speakers though, such as the Tidal ones at Capital Audio Fest.

Agree that we can't paint all mega buck speakers with the same brush.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, the last few posts have been some of the most interesting, and apposite ones, I have had the pleasure of reading on WBF, and on any audio forum.
Surely, a modest conclusion to draw should be that you should be able to trust your ears - ie if it sounds good, it is good.
Now, one can fine tune enjoyment via some measurements eg frequency measurements in the room to pinpoint best placement of spkrs/subs x'overs etc, but surely ones' ears should be the start and end of it, w/some objectivity in the middle.
Re paint shredding tweeters, I've heard a fair number of SOTA contenders, and the tweeter is always the driver that draws most attention to itself.
I find it fascinating that Wilson, maybe the first big hitter to have gone down the exotic tweeter route is going back to good 'ol fashioned soft domes (albeit brilliantly engineered).
And now we "hear" that Magico from day 1 have been trying to tame that Mk 1 Q7 tweeter - God, if it needed refining on release, maybe it should never have been released.
Or am I being ultra cynical in thinking that a non universally acclaimed tweeter was incorporated to guarantee the fanboys have to upgrade at a later stage, guaranteeing continuous sales?
And then there are those who love everything about so called SOTA plasma tweeters, and those on MBLs, but just find the whole thing tipped up/plutonium pwrd?
One of the reasons I'm happy to stick Zu which takes a pretty old fashioned and much maligned topology ie full range drivers using paper cones, but updated w/nano tech impregnation, to create seamless frequency response - maybe w/out the aural fireworks of a Magico or Rockport, but a sound you can live w/every day, zero fatigue factor.
Throw in the epiphany one gets from conversion to tubes, and esp the SETs cause, and I personally am set for life.
I've met guys at shows who have spent 3x what I have going to Krells, Wilsons etc, and are more unhappy than they ever have been.
So what's going on here? Did they never like their sound, and are on a spiral of decline trying to spend their way to a palatable system?
Or did they enjoy the sound, but specs and reviews and ads and messages re the "best new thing/new kid on the block" mean that they became deaf to their own ears, and can only "hear" marketing messages saying what they need is "just around the corner/attainable at the next big spend"?
For the first time, I'm likely to turn down a series of potential upgrades (to top of the line Nat Magnetostat pre/new Zu flagships), because I'm am truly happy w/my sound, and am not aware of any cognitive dissonance. If I'm happy, just why would I be driven to change? For the first time in two decades, I'm not.
But it sure feels weird, being happy and practicing a little self control.

 

[DaveyF]

I have said for years that there are certain speakers that utilize metal domes that are exceedingly 'bright' ( to my ears). The fact that their designers are designing the speaker for an audience is probable, or it could be that the designer themselves are unable to hear the offending aspect of their product (or, perhaps it's both scenarios). Since the consumer is going to be using their ears to determine IF they like the sound of the product, I guess there is nothing wrong with the tactic ( or the fact that the designer himself has less than stellar hearing and therefore is oblivious to the fault; BTW do we assume that all speaker designers are 'golden eared'? ). One other point, we do all listen to the speakers we are contemplating buying prior to purchase and with our ancillary gear, don't we???

 

[still-one]

LOL. Really now. So EVERY other scientific and artistic field have breakthroughs maybe, MAYBE every 20 years.

But our precious hobby of high end audio is blessed by the gods and every two years we get MAJOR break throughs.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Twenty years. Where are you living, in a cave? TV, computers, phones, cars........... are improving almost yearly.

 

[Andre Marc]

Twenty years. Where are you living. TV, computers, phones, cars........... are improving almost yearly.

This is all based on processor speed which accelerates even beyond the ability for manufacturers to design around them...yearly. No connection and an an island in and of itself.

The new devices that appear and are "improved" are not breakthroughs.

 

[still-one]

This is all based on processor speed which accelerates even beyond the ability for manufacturers to design around them...yearly. No connection and an an island in and of itself.

The new devices that appear and are "improved" are not breakthroughs.

To be SOA does not require "breakthrough" technology rather continuous gains.

 

[DaveyF]

One other interesting point. It is a well known marketing tact that in order to continue to move product, it is imperative that the prior production be seen as 'lacking' or somewhat unworthy. The fact that the prior production could in fact be superior to the current product is almost never disclosed. The possibility that the prior product could even be 'equal' to the current product is also generally not disclosed or expounded. How many times in our hobby, have we actually had a designer or manufacturer admit to the fact that their current SOTA product doesn't hold a candle to their earlier technology or design. I think one of the things that William Zane Johnson did that was so interesting, was to break with that mold and actually use his ears....and as we all know, that paid off well for him. ( But I understand there was tremendous 'push back' when he did it). Pity, that there are still so many companies that rely on the 'fear' factor of the well heeled and insecure buyer to move their product ( particularly so in our little hobby, it would seem). All IMHO.

 

[Andre Marc]

To be SOA does not require "breakthrough" technology rather continuous gains.

Yes, along with a brainwahsed customer base with tons of disposal income, a "MK II" or "V.2" designation and massive hyperbole from
the press.

 

[microstrip]

I agree that this is possible and that frequency response may not be enough to tell us what is going on. In the case of the new Magico tweeter, there is a new diamond coating on the beryilium tweeter which is partly responsible for the new sound. Perhaps there are other measurements that might show the effect other than frequency response. During the three times that I have heard this new tweeter in MadFloyd's M Project, it did not at all sound bright and did not cause glare or fatigue. Yet all of the detail and resolution is still there, perhaps more so. Truly remarkable.

Even worst - you change the type and brand of passive components keeping the same electrical values in the speaker and it changes the perceived detail and brightness balance in a speaker. Surely it does not change the FR. As far as I know the Q7 Mk2 has new crossover.

 

[microstrip]

To be SOA does not require "breakthrough" technology rather continuous gains.

Surely. And many times the "breakthrough" technology has been in use by another manufacturer since long.

 

[Al M.]

I also think this constant drive to find flaws in one's system is crazy. It is like the difference between eastern and western philosophy. In the east, they cherish what they have and are thankful to no end, in the west, we constantly worry about what we do not have and curse the gods for depriving us.

Yes, recently I heard the superb system of a fellow WBF member. The next morning I listened briefly to my system, and found what it could not do in comparison. In the afternoon I listened again, and on some aspects of reproduction on my system, like dynamics or portrayal of orchestral brass sections, I was going "wow, this is spectacular". Yesterday, a few days later, I was completely glued to my system, enjoying the music and what my system can do (a lot), and forgetting about flaws (including the rather severe ones of the recording that I closed with, I was just interested in the music it contained).

On another forum someone shared his experience of finding more and more flaws in his system to the point of grave annoyance. He decided to stop listening and doing other things. Seven weeks later he turned on his system again, and was floored by the wonderful sounds he heard.

 

[Andre Marc]

Yes, recently I heard the superb system of a fellow WBF member. The next morning I listened briefly to my system, and found what it could not do in comparison. In the afternoon I listened again, and on some aspects of reproduction on my system, like dynamics or portrayal of orchestral brass sections, I was going "wow, this is spectacular". Yesterday, a few days later, I was completely glued to my system, enjoying the music and what my system can do (a lot), and forgetting about flaws (including the rather severe ones of the recording that I closed with, I was just interested in the music it contained).

On another forum someone shared his experience of finding more and more flaws in his system to the point of grave annoyance. He decided to stop listening and doing other things. Seven weeks later he turned on his system again, and was floored by the wonderful sounds he heard.

Great post.

 

[Robh3606]

Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post

I agree that this is possible and that frequency response may not be enough to tell us what is going on. In the case of the new Magico tweeter, there is a new diamond coating on the beryilium tweeter which is partly responsible for the new sound. Perhaps there are other measurements that might show the effect other than frequency response. During the three times that I have heard this new tweeter in MadFloyd's M Project, it did not at all sound bright and did not cause glare or fatigue. Yet all of the detail and resolution is still there, perhaps more so. Truly remarkable.

Hello Peter

JBL uses Aquaplas as a dampening agent on their Aluminum, Magnesium and Beryllium diaphrams on their consumer/ Synthesis compression drivers used in the Everest 9800 9900 and Array series. You won't see it in the FR plots. Where you do see it is in the time domain measurements like a waterfall or ETC plots. The coated drivers have very quick settling times, Much better than the uncoated ones

Rob

 

[spiritofmusic]

In the last few months I've made good friends w. Barry/Blue58, who runs AG Duos w/his own home made 45's tube amps.
I've been contemplating horns for a long time having had a mainly amazing experience w/Cessaro Liszts, and prior to that AG Trios/Subs 212's, and had been considering making the journey to New Jersey to hear the Sadurni Staccatos.
The first experience of the Duos made my sound seem broken by comparison, and I had a severe bout of horns envy for quite a few weeks. So much so I started checking used pairs of Duos online.
Multiple demos over intervening weeks, and something interesting happened. I became a lot more aware of what my Zus/Nats still did so well, in some ways on a par and superior to the Duos.
As I made some tentative upgrades myself ie completing a new Sablon Gran Reservas cable loom, and installed Duelunds and Lundahls in my Zus, on the sixth visit, I had a 180 on my preferences - despite my Zus/Nats not being as "spectacular" as Barry's Duos, I found that across the board, on the music I am most familiar with, I prefer ON BALANCE my sound.
Now, this took six stress free demos, my longest and most in depth a'b experience by far.
There's no doubt that based on the initial demo, had this been at a dealer w/chequebook in hand, I would have bought the Duos.
And maybe right now be regretting the decision or at the least still have some cognitive dissonance.
This experience has taught me a whole lot on the upgrade process, the fact that expectation bias, desire, Western capitalist spending impulse, subliminal messages that what one has is never enough, and radical changes of direction, all mesh into a simple drive, that needs to be really considered by the individual.

 

[PeterA]

Hello Peter

JBL uses Aquaplas as a dampening agent on their Aluminum, Magnesium and Beryllium diaphrams on their consumer/ Synthesis compression drivers used in the Everest 9800 9900 and Array series. You won't see it in the FR plots. Where you do see it is in the time domain measurements like a waterfall or ETC plots. The coated drivers have very quick settling times, Much better than the uncoated ones

Rob

Thanks Rob. I suspected that differences might show up in measurements, but often not in frequency responses. And I used the Q7 as a recent example because the designer specifically claimed that the FR was identical. In that case, I think it was Tim who mentioned that FR was not what to look at but some other speaker measurements.

 

[Fidach Lad]

Tweeters are fairly easy to treat to subdue their paint-shredding characteristics, or so I am told. The ones on my Tonian floor standers don't sound that way at all, as they are treated by the builder.

 

[Al M.]

Great post.

Thanks, Andre. I thought you brought up an excellent point, to which I felt compelled to respond.

 

[Gregadd]

http://www.brooklyn.cuny.edu/bc/ahp/LAD/C2/C2_stimulus.html



Response to stimuli


Don't try pushing these fellows around!
Living things are capable to rapid changes in the environment. These rapid changes, called stimuli, provoke reactions in living organisms that are often very different from those expected from nonliving things.

For example, if a 10-pound rock (a nonliving object) is pushed across a smooth surface (the stimulus), it will respond in a predictable manner by moving a predictable distance in a straight line (the response).

The force of the push and the result it produces can be reduced to a mathematical formula which can then be used to make accurate predictions about the behavior of this rock, and then other rocks, under similar sets of circumstances.

If, however, the same force or stimulus is applied to a large growling dog, the dog may move away or, equally well, turn and attack the person applying the force!

The response obtained is certainly not predictable from simple mechanical laws. Similarly, if a bird is pushed it will probably fly. Push a frog and it will jump. The range of responses to exactly the same stimulus varies widely for each organism and among different organisms.

This makes it almost impossible to generate universal laws to predict the behavior of living organisms in any given situation. The variety of unpredictable responses is a sign of life.

BIOdotEDU
© 2003, Professor John Blamire


***
http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/reliablt.php



Theory of Reliability


p
n research, the term reliability means "repeatability" or "consistency". A measure is considered reliable if it would give us the same result over and over again (assuming that what we are measuring isn't changing!

 

[Andre Marc]

Thanks, Andre. I thought you brought up an excellent point, to which I felt compelled to respond.

..and you did so quite nicely!

 

[amirm]

Living things are capable to rapid changes in the environment. These rapid changes, called stimuli, provoke reactions in living organisms that are often very different from those expected from nonliving things.

For example, if a 10-pound rock (a nonliving object) is pushed across a smooth surface (the stimulus), it will respond in a predictable manner by moving a predictable distance in a straight line (the response).

The force of the push and the result it produces can be reduced to a mathematical formula which can then be used to make accurate predictions about the behavior of this rock, and then other rocks, under similar sets of circumstances.

If, however, the same force or stimulus is applied to a large growling dog, the dog may move away or, equally well, turn and attack the person applying the force!

The response obtained is certainly not predictable from simple mechanical laws. Similarly, if a bird is pushed it will probably fly. Push a frog and it will jump. The range of responses to exactly the same stimulus varies widely for each organism and among different organisms.

This makes it almost impossible to generate universal laws to predict the behavior of living organisms in any given situation. The variety of unpredictable responses is a sign of life.

Which one do you think the audio equipment is, the rock or the dog?