Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...

Nobody handed out high fives because of Pass's quote. All I said was that it was the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title. Smoke and mirrors aren't necessary to....well, never mind. Think I'll slide out now...

Tom
 
Hi


Any successful businessperson knows that the first rule for staying in business is to make sure you do not offend your customers. So Nelson , and others, abide. They , not singling out Nelson play our game and become our gurus... We believe, we want to believe so they oblige ..
This said.

I can't for the life of me understand the strident call for believing your ears above an instrument. Liking or not can be measured and rather precisely. If we eliminate the biases it is entirely possible to measure why we like something. That it is not done is a different matter. If you had a clock that would tell the time according to your mood , would you use it to set the time of an important meeting? Same with our ears .. They can and do fool us repeatedly. They can be trained and for entertaiing ourselves, we do not need instruments but for the sake or replicating something , say an amplifer.. They are necessary.. Same with speakers or ... gasp.. cables ... :)

Yes! Audiophiles can be trained or train themselves to have rather good judgement on the worth or adequacy of a given piece or assembly of gear to replicate music but that doesn't invalidate the need for instruments which are consistently and by far more precise and reliable than our ears ... And to come with the point of instruments and ears being incompatible is one of those things we like to believe in .. yet Microphones are after all instruments .. we seem quite intent on believing them too...
 
It is our perception of time that we can't measure.
 
It is able to align the shaft within 0,02 mm (given it has a appropriate stable foundation) , angle faults and vertically or sideways faults , in holland 0,06 is the acceptable industry standard on fast rotating equipment , on equipment rotating slower the tolerance can be lowered its also ex , so it can be used in explosive areas .
it also measures live so you can shim it out quit fast which saves time
There is also equipment which can be use to align a drive train at once(multiple axes ) so for example flaker -gearbox- E motor , but we dont use it we do it one at a time
 
Last edited:
I would like to think I am a reasonably successful engineer. I have designed and built my own audio system. One day I may do something commercial with it, but at the moment it is just used by me. Other people seem to like it, though.

If the question is how much to trust measurements vs. ears when creating a design then here is one real life case study:

1. At a whole-system level I decided that the most 'correct' system was going to be digital, DSP-based, with active crossover and amplification, sealed bass units and at least three way drivers. Listening: none, only a rational assessment of the facts as I saw them. Measurements: none.
2. I bought drivers (12”, 4”, 1” which seemed about right) and stuck them in boxes – big box for the bass (freeware software to calculate the correct volume) and smaller box for the mid and tweeter. Baffles partially mechanically decoupled from the boxes to reduce resonances – thought this seemed a good idea and quite practical too. Listening: none. Measurements: none.
3. I created PC-based DSP software to implement basic crossover filters with adjustable frequencies and slopes, and listened to this, adjusting levels by ear. In some ways it was good, but definitely not quite right in terms of the frequency balance, and I knew that it was highly unlikely that the crossovers were correct in terms of relative phase between drivers, and definitely not correct in terms of absolute phase and timing accuracy. Listening: yes, but only confirmation that the system was working basically, and gathering experience of what I could expect later. Measurements: none.
4. I went ahead and created a full-blown DSP crossover system with driver correction based on individual driver measurements, plus selectable delays for time alignment. I also added pre-calculated EQ curves often called 'baffle step' compensation, rather than attempting to derive this compensation using in-room measurements which are fraught with difficulty. I made few measurements to confirm this stuff worked correctly, and I don't think I even completely confirmed it gave the correct numbers: it was more a case of looking at the code and checking it was correct. Listening: just to check it was working. Measurements: yes, but only drivers in terms of frequency response and phase response to be fed into the correction. Then eventually 'loopback' measurements of the drivers to confirm they gave truly flat phase and frequency response.
5. I listened to this setup extensively and tweaked the baffle step curves (depth only) by ear, using in-room measurements to confirm that this, and the individual driver levels, were more-or-less correctly set. Listening: yes, in awe. Measurements: yes – pretty simple, though.
6. In the subsequent two years I have made minor changes to the crossover frequencies and slopes, but I think with imaginary improvements. However, I am confident that I can hear quite subtle changes in the baffle step compensation depth, and that 'correct' is within a very small margin – far smaller than is achievable with passive speakers, and is of course dependent on the speaker placement in the room. For a commercial product, this would certainly be left as a user-adjustable parameter.

And that is it. It's straightforward, did not take a genius to do it, it really works and sounds astounding. But of course if I came to sell this as a product, I could spin any romantic yarn about how it was created that I wanted to. And if anyone sought my wisdom and insights in an interview I could certainly come up with some guff about how music is for humans, and measurements are for machines and obviously a truly inspired product must be a blend of the two. I would, no doubt, mix self-deprecation with hints of my own genius. Tales of extensive listening and measurement would feature, but that ultimately it all boils down to the fact that I am uniquely gifted. Implying that I am supremely confident in my abilities and importance I would generously grant that maybe my system is not to everyone's taste – some prefer a different topology – but hint very subtly that they are probably tin-eared philistines.
 
Last edited:
We rrealy have have to be careful when we jump between science. marketing, and audiophilia.(I think that is the place where audiophiles dwell)
 
PHP:
I would prefer subjective listening feedback from known to me '[B]serious listeners' [/B]to high end audio or known to me 'serious designers' of high end audio compared (with all due respect) to you, your family, or these hundred random people. I've had enough 'random people' in my listening room to recognize a 'deer in the headlights' that have no clue what they might be listening to or how something should d. it takes time to 'get it'. there is a learning cur
v.
soun
Mike,
I was looking at Floyd Tooles' video. I think he prefers "trained listeners' also. The training is probably a little different.
 
Last edited:
I'm struggling with this thread, I have to be honest. I can't find a genuine source of conflict other than the usual, and now I'm not sure what we're on about at all.

Audiophiles are, of course, free to choose the gear they want to buy in whatever way they see fit. In the highly unlikely event that a stereotype buys his gear on the basis of lab tests alone, I can't for one second imagine why anyone would care. If another sort of stereotype buys his gear on the basis of his ear alone, eschewing all specs/tests/warnings, I'm still not sure why anyone else would care.

Are we trying to argue that one particular approach makes somebody a "better" audiophile? Deep down, I think this is EXACTLY what is going on, but I can hardly believe it. This imagined gulf between the sides is increasingly tiresome to see played out over 43 pages and counting, and fighting over which team Nelson Pass or A. N. Other designer plays for might be the most pathetic thing I've seen yet. Are we really so insecure? Why are we so obsessed with what other audiophiles do??

Rant over. As you were. Usual disclaimers apply. All IMO, of course.

Edit: I should say that it's not my intention to try to silence anybody or put an end to a discussion. You're all free to argue as you see fit as well! :)
 
Last edited:
Does Flod Toole think ears trump measurements? In his video he states a concert hall that measures horribly(comb filtering etc.( can be the site of an extraordinary performance .I'm paraphrasing.
 
One mustn't confuse creation and its reproduction.
Keith.

That is certainly true. However are you suggesting that a room affects "creation" differently ffrom "reproduction."
 
For a few, exactly; for a few others it applies to equipment designers; for a few others, it is about how we hear what we hear in an epidemiological sense, which is probably the basis for all of the various types of replies.
 
Mike: I just referred to you on another board, where people were talking about 'dream systems' and the degree to which it is the gear and the room. I used you as an example of someone who has gone the distance on uber gear, paid the money and went to the length of a dedicated building, and you have still had to spend time over the years changing parameters, fine tuning, etc.
Although I didn't mention it my post on the other board, my experience in the car world taught me much the same; having had a lot of those uber exotics over the years, there's nothing like a well-set up Porsche. :) But, I think you can only say that after you have been down the road. Me, my system is in fine fettle for what it is, strengths and weaknesses such as they are. I'm far happier spending time on all the records I accumulated over the years, learning about how they were made, and why some of them have the 'magic.' My conclusion so far: a happy coincidence of artistry and engineering. :)

hi Bill,

sorry for the delay in my response.....busy day yesterday.

thanks for the kind words. I agree that there is no 'one way' or 'easy way' to just plug and play or 'buy' the finished product that really touches you and entertains you. you have to give back to your passion and refine it to truly get the most out of it and that is where the satisfaction is. it does not hurt to learn and get humbled a few times either along the way to be able to fully appreciate it. once your ego gets somewhat out of the way (and you become objectively subjective) then your mind is open to the possibilities. at least that is my personal experience.

cheers,

Mike
 
Does Flod Toole think ears trump measurements? In his video he states a concert hall that measures horribly(comb filtering etc.( can be the site of an extraordinary performance .I'm paraphrasing.
Let me make an important point here and then answer your question: there is no such thing as "measurements" as a single concept. Each measurement has a different value to the point of the question being asked. The notion that we should discuss measurements versus the ear is completely wrong. The ear is the ear whereas measurement is a generic term that can refer to anything from weight of a DAC to a psychoacoustic model inside of a codec attempting to minimize distortion. The latter highly correlates with what we hear, the former not much of any.

I mention this because you cannot generalize common measurements in a room to measurements elsewhere. Each has their own potential benefits and flaws.

With that disclaimer out of the way, in acoustics there is an important concept of transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz. Below those frequencies, room measurements absolutely speak the truth. If you see a 15 dB peak at 70 Hz and a note hits it, everyone here and their dog will hear that note way amplified. Coloration is added and is specific to that room. In another room, the same measurement may show a 5 db trough at 60 Hz, and hence guaranteeing that the two rooms have changed the response of the same loudspeaker. No ifs and buts about it.

Identifying the above by ear alone can be hard. The room modes at low frequencies can have resolutions below a single Hertz! This is why you need ultra precise EQ system to dial these out or lots and lots of room treatment. I don't know of anyone, no matter how experienced, that can walk into a room and say, "oh, there is a peak at 72 Hz." You can try to guess and screw around with an EQ by ear but I assure you that it will sound good on some tracks and not others. So the value of measurements here is clear and accepted.

Above transition frequencies we run into a problem when we use a single microphone. We have two ears, not one. When a sound comes from the side, our head creates a shadow in these higher frequencies and hence what the right and left ear hear are not the same. See my article here and this graph: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomReflections.html

HRTF.png


Notice the big difference in hearing the same sound 30 degrees to one side. So no way a single microphone can pick up what is clearly two different signals.

The other problem is that the resolution of our ear keeps reducing as frequencies go up. Again a graph from my article:

ERB.png


This means that if you make a frequency sweep as is commonly done and show that frequency response, what you see in there is wrong. There will be tons of variations that fall below the resolution of the ear. In this sense, the measurement is way, way too good relative to how deaf the ear is in picking up small changes. Again see the article for details on that. This can be easily fixed by filtering the response gradually as frequencies go up or doing that manually as I do (REW has added the former now but I am not quite sure of its appropriateness).

It is for this reason that we say "measurements" can be totally useless in acoustics. We are not saying all measurements are bad. We are referring to common measurements people make who don't understand the psychoacoustics.

And the last point is key: if you understand the science of how we hear, then you cannot be easily misled by measurements. Now this is not an easy science to learn but it is learnable. Certainly if you spend an hour or two a week studying it, eventually you come out the other side, fully capable of understanding at some point. Once there, there is no danger in using measurements.
 
But if we were listening to a baritone singer (range from 98Hz upwards) in an untreated room, would we wince at the coloration on his voice, perhaps finding it unrecognisable? Would we suggest he instead sang through some sort of PA system fitted with an EQ filter to quell some of the terrible resonances at source?

I don't think we would even notice the room unless it had a real humdinger of a resonance and as a result the EQ'd version would sound wrong. I think this is why Linkwitz suggests that any room in which you can have a comfortable conversation is good enough. The room forms a complete, coherent system where every reflection gives the corresponding boosts and cuts in frequency response, reverberation and resonance entirely consistently. If you EQ the source then you break the system. Can the ear/brain detect this, even if only subconsciously?

EQ is different from room treatment. Room treatment still gives you a complete, consistent acoustic system.
 
Are we trying to argue that one particular approach makes somebody a "better" audiophile? Deep down, I think this is EXACTLY what is going on, but I can hardly believe it. This imagined gulf between the sides is increasingly tiresome to see played out over 43 pages and counting, and fighting over which team Nelson Pass or A. N. Other designer plays for might be the most pathetic thing I've seen yet. Are we really so insecure? Why are we so obsessed with what other audiophiles do??

I've always wondered why these threads keep reappearing and I think you've nailed it.

Please remember this is but one of numerous O vs S threads that have appeared over the years almost on a monthly basis. The aggregate number of posts around this topic is certainly in the thousands.

Oh well. Think of it as the audio version of "Groundhog Day.

Have fun gentlemen. Please carry on.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu