Thanks for the link... I can't imagine the same number of people preferring 3rd order over 2nd order distortion.
Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...
- Thread starter Andre Marc
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Thanks for the link... I can't imagine the same number of people preferring 3rd order over 2nd order distortion.
Seems to contradict this one by Bruno Putzeys - who really lays into the subjectivist camp.
http://linearaudionet.solide-ict.nl/sites/linearaudio.net/files/volume1bp.pdf
But like I say, if conventional amps can't hack it as some people seem to be suggesting, with only a balance of evils possible (although a Golden Balance can be divined by a self-proclaimed genius of course), then perhaps it's time to look at a completely different system: class D or whatever. Personally, I'm not convinced I would ever hear anything wrong with a good Class AB amp - even less so if there is one per driver. I wouldn't even waste time auditioning different amps in this situation.
I can assure you of one thing. If you don't audition any amps, you certainly will not find a better one. The notion that all amps sound the same is so qualified it has become meaningless.
"Too much of a good thing can be wonderfu.l"-Mae West. I doubt she was referring to NFB
"Too much of a good thing can be wonderfu.l"-Mae West. I doubt she was referring to NFB
But I am talking about bypassing the problem - if we think it is just too difficult to solve after 50+ years of trying. In the situation of an active speaker the problem is divided and, I would suggest, conquered. The amplifier suddenly has a much easier job to do (bandwidth limited, load less complex and much reduced) and if it has any distortion it only applies to a smaller portion of the signal, reducing IMD. The use of DSP means that crossovers become predictable and trivial to implement, allowing us to use more drivers, which again has benefits throughout the whole system. This is a whole-system approach that cannot be arrived at by tentatively modifying an existing typical system piece by piece and listening to see if it's any better (i.e. "trusting our ears").
I balk at the term "prefer distortion." I would say they are less offended by one or the other. This is a"straw poll"
I did hear the LLinkwitz Oruon but I would not qualify to discuss active speakers. It just so happens I listened to interview of Dave Wilson of Wilson Audio discuss why he was not interested in making an active speaker. He thought it was a marketing decision. He did not want to make that choice foe his customers. Spectral of course has a dedicated cable and recommends the Avalon speaker.
Or ignore the sentence exposing that there is no correlation between sound quality and measurements for the circuits showing in 99% of current designs. The measurements are tools for electronic design, as well as electronic simulators and CAD facilities. Most subjectivists accept measurements - what we usually question is just the correlation with sound quality and the use of measurements as the best sound quality evaluator, with the capability of rating and even "eliminating" products.
But yes, I think we all agree both extreme positions are emotional and neither is reasonable.
BTW, Nelson Pass opinions seem very clear. A few more quotes:
If you are concerned that your power amplifier (or anything else for that matter)
is as objectively and technically accurate as possible,
that is a perfectly legitimate criterion. You will certainly find many
products in the marketplace that excel at conventional objective
performance, and most of them are much cheaper.
Our real customers care most about the experience they get when
they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste.
We want our products to invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy
the experience so much that you go through your entire record
collection - again and again. This, by the way, is a very strong
indicator
(...)
At Pass Labs we have one goal: to create products that invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy the experience so much that you go through your entire music collection - again, again and again.... each time a joyous discovery of something new. We want music lovers for the long haul.
To reach that goal, we continually strive to design amplifiers that deliver great sound, measure well and are reliable. This is achieved through ongoing R&D, and lots and lots of listening. Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are excellent tools, but they historically make lousy customers. Our real customers care most about the experience they get when they sit down to listen to their music.
(...)
So we have gone from quoting Pass Labs web site to quoting their manuals. Since when these are supposed to be unbiased authoritative proof points of anything?
Let me be direct: there is no way Nelson is your friend in this domain. There is not one amplifier designer that does not heavily rely on measurements for both efficacy of design, and manufacturing testing. Sure, if you are going to sell equipment to high-end customers, you want to downplay that as Nelson does. But the truth is there and in plain sight. From the very manual the above was quoted from we read this from Nelson:
"Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are excellent and helpful tools, but they make lousy customers."
Darn right. Deadliest thing in this business is to tell your customers the opposite of what they believe. You would go out of business trying to sell these expensive amps. So he does what he should do in business, tell you want you want to hear. While in reality heavily relying on measurements and audio science to design his equipment.
Accept that the man is trying to make a living so has to speak to both camp.
Let me be direct: there is no way Nelson is your friend in this domain. There is not one amplifier designer that does not heavily rely on measurements for both efficacy of design, and manufacturing testing. Sure, if you are going to sell equipment to high-end customers, you want to downplay that as Nelson does. But the truth is there and in plain sight. From the very manual the above was quoted from we read this from Nelson:
"Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are excellent and helpful tools, but they make lousy customers."
Darn right. Deadliest thing in this business is to tell your customers the opposite of what they believe. You would go out of business trying to sell these expensive amps. So he does what he should do in business, tell you want you want to hear. While in reality heavily relying on measurements and audio science to design his equipment.
Accept that the man is trying to make a living so has to speak to both camp.
Probably best to read his views elsewhere than the above mention on their product page to get the full picture: http://www.herronaudio.com/images/Measurements.pdf
How many people give thumbs to this version?
Whoever did the highlighting of this article has introduced an expectation bias to the reader. This should have been presented without the editorializing.
I don't know what "give thumbs" means. But I do respect Nelson Pass' opinions on this subject. This article seems very reasonable and well written. He seems to be saying that both measurements and listening play important roles in his design process. I would expect as much and don't see why anyone would bother to argue against this. I also find the un-hilighted sections particularly interesting, especially the last paragraph.
We agreed on the use of measurements you are now referring, as I noted before. And quotes are information that should be read as an whole. There is a coherent line of thought that I referred before between the site, manuals and his sayings.
Again, IMHO Nelson Pass is a good friend of the high-end subjective people: almost all the sentences form a recent interview that members can read in full http://audiophilereview.com/amps/nelson-pass-interview.html#sthash.4WkKNVHe.dpuf can show it.
"AR: In 2011, have we reached a point where amplifiers won't be getting much better or does amplifier design have a long way to go towards perfection?
Nelson Pass : There is progress to be made, and the necessary tools are already on the table. From a strictly objective standpoint we are largely finished - adding more zeros to the usual distortion numbers isn't going to improve the sound very much.
What remains is the need for clearer insight into subjective effects. Our brains are very much different from test equipment and are easily fooled by some phenomena and very sharp at discriminating others. Reading the literature in cognitive psychology, it's clear that we don't know very much about musical perception.
As a practical result we have to emphasize critical listening with potential designs. The necessary tools for this are experienced ears and perseverance."
- See more at: http://audiophilereview.com/amps/nelson-pass-interview.html#sthash.4WkKNVHe.dpuf It is really worth reading.
I only use my sig stereo on Friday and Saturday night to keep the electric bill down. Anyway, last night I was listening to a new HD Tracks download, Hollywood Vampires. While I was listening to it and enjoying it, I felt the recording wasn't quite as good as other downloads. There seemed to be a barely perceptible high freq noise/hash/distortion on the songs. Later I glanced at the details of a track on the Lumin app, and saw it was FLAC PCM to DSD. My first thought was, why did HD Tracks do that? Then I saw I had enabled PCM to DSD in the app. I must have done that last weekend, and forgot about it. So, I switched back to Native mode, and the sound quality improved.
For the future, rather than trusting my ears to pickup these configuration issues, I will check the app at the start to make sure it is correct.
For the future, rather than trusting my ears to pickup these configuration issues, I will check the app at the start to make sure it is correct.
I don't know what literature he is referring to because the bible here is not "cognitive psychology" but "psychoacoustics." Cognitive psychology would give away the farm as it would immediately confirm that any listening test that is not bias controlled, i.e. is sighted, is going to lead to incorrect data. And thus invalidating any listening tests they are doing on their own equipment with all the biases clearly involved.
That aside, as I keep saying, it simply is not possible to be an amplifier designer and shun measurements. This is by the way what Pass Labs home page says:
"At Pass Labs we have one goal: to create products that invite you to listen. We want you to enjoy the experience so much that you go through your entire music collection - again, again and again.... each time a joyous discovery of something new. We want music lovers for the long haul.
To reach that goal, we continually strive to design amplifiers that deliver great sound, measure well and are reliable..."
If listening is everything why make any reference to measuring well at all? Answer is because it still matters to make sure you don't design a screwed up amplifier.
I only use my sig stereo on Friday and Saturday night to keep the electric bill down. Anyway, last night I was listening to a new HD Tracks download, Hollywood Vampires. While I was listening to it and enjoying it, I felt the recording wasn't quite as good as other downloads. There seemed to be a barely perceptible high freq noise/hash/distortion on the songs. Later I glanced at the details of a track on the Lumin app, and saw it was FLAC PCM to DSD. My first thought was, why did HD Tracks do that? Then I saw I had enabled PCM to DSD in the app. I must have done that last weekend, and forgot about it. So, I switched back to Native mode, and the sound quality improved.
For the future, rather than trusting my ears to pickup these configuration issues, I will check the app at the start to make sure it is correct.
Stuff like that happens to me all the time. An important point is that while you did not know why at the time, you did pick up that something was not right with nothing but your ears.
General lack of experience with a variety of components would have to be a prime candidate for anyone not feeling at all comfortable with their critical listening skills. Real experience and committed practice over time trumps some loose theoretical or virtual understanding most any day of the week.
Scientific proof? Someone's opinion is not a proof of anything so that is not at issue. An appeal to authority was made to justify one's position so I responded that such is not the case when the material is taken out of manual for a product or company web site. I can quote a thousand manufacturer web sites that praise listening and say little to nothing about measurement. Let's not waste our time with such things. I am OK with appeal to authority but make sure the word authority has at least some value before using it such.
Here is another reference for Nelson Pass: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0808/,
Leaving Class A
Article By Nelson Pass of Pass Labs
Check out all of these measurements:
And says this: "The benefits of high bias current extend beyond simple harmonic distortion measurements – you also get a reduction of intermodulation distortion (arguably more important), and a lower, more consistent output impedance. "
Then more measurements:
And ends this way:
"Measurements are helpful at illustrating the differences between design approaches, but they are certainly not the last word in audio. If they were, then numerous other approaches would sound as good or better. You can certainly imagine an amplifier, which operates with a low bias current but has the necessary amount of negative feedback and/or circuit complexity to insure that it measures as well. Actually, you do not have to imagine it – such amplifiers are for sale. Do they sound better? We don't think so. Our meters don't go to zero."
The message here is not that measurements are not useful or critical to design of amplifiers. They are and he spent 99% of the article talking about them. What he says at the end is a political backtrack based on faulty logic. Market success has nothing to do with best audio performance. Or else we could blame every high-end gear including Pass as a failure because they too have not dominated the market.
Leaving Class A
Article By Nelson Pass of Pass Labs
Check out all of these measurements:
And says this: "The benefits of high bias current extend beyond simple harmonic distortion measurements – you also get a reduction of intermodulation distortion (arguably more important), and a lower, more consistent output impedance. "
Then more measurements:
And ends this way:
"Measurements are helpful at illustrating the differences between design approaches, but they are certainly not the last word in audio. If they were, then numerous other approaches would sound as good or better. You can certainly imagine an amplifier, which operates with a low bias current but has the necessary amount of negative feedback and/or circuit complexity to insure that it measures as well. Actually, you do not have to imagine it – such amplifiers are for sale. Do they sound better? We don't think so. Our meters don't go to zero."
The message here is not that measurements are not useful or critical to design of amplifiers. They are and he spent 99% of the article talking about them. What he says at the end is a political backtrack based on faulty logic. Market success has nothing to do with best audio performance. Or else we could blame every high-end gear including Pass as a failure because they too have not dominated the market.
Are you saying that because Nelson Pass's opinions conflict with yours that he has no 'authority' on this subject? Also, other than your post, and this post, I didn't see the word authority used anywhere from the post (350) that first referred to Nelson Pass.
http://www.weiss.ch/assets/content/41/Can-You-Trust-Your-Ears.pdf
Maybe this article will get us back on track. If we hear but can't measure it ,is it real or imagined?
Maybe this article will get us back on track. If we hear but can't measure it ,is it real or imagined?
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