Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...

[Goliath]

Goliath, you are right. I don't know for sure why it sounds different. But I do know for sure that I heard a change and continue to hear a change over many years. I did not claim a cause for the change. Please reread my statement.

Sorry, if that was the case then I apologise. If you heard something in your listening session then I don't see any conflict. You heard what you heard. I wouldn't dispute your experience.

I have no interest or need to prove anything to you. I don't care in the least whether you believe me. It was a subjective observation made by me, the subject, based on my senses. It is just like me saying that I put on an LP this morning of Alfred Brendel playing Beethoven's Sonata No. 14 and then observing that it sounds like a piano. Sure you can say that I made a claim. Do you really need me to prove it to you?

I never read your earlier posts so I made assumptions. I was in error. I don't dispute your experience and in fact I completely believe that you experienced something. No need to prove that to me or to anyone, quite frankly.

Why don't you and I simply agree to disagree, abide by Amir's warnings about being kinder and non argumentative, and try to enjoy these discussions? Perhaps even listen to some music. I extend to you my hand for a friendly shake.

I'm listening to music while I type, what are you doing? No need to disagree. We all listen at home using all the senses and it's all about the enjoyment it brings us.

I only have issue with people who make claims linking audibility to a specific cause/gear (whatever) with no support. If no claims are made in that regard then no problem. At least we're on the same page now, so thanks.

 

[Gregadd]

.

I recently saw a comic routine by a gay comedian with an adopted son. hHs son had reached the age to participate in tee ball. He wondered aloud whether he was a bad father. The other fathers had been tossing the ball with thier sons since early that morning.he arrived at the practice field to announce he was here for the baseball"auditions" After groaning and rolling thier eyes, the other fathers quickly advised him auditions are for the performing arts, Sport teams have "try outs,"" St is to rub people the wrong way.

I have said before I am not a subjectivist but a pragmatist. There was a time when scientist beleive there was no such thing as a curve ball. So the pragmatist in me says get int he batters box. When the ball appears to he curving toward your head , don''t duck!
That said I think it's perfect;y okay to preach against witchcraft. But when you burn someone at the stake, you've gone too far.

... if you are going to poke the bear, you can't expect it to not turn around and chase you . And calls for outlawing the bears when one enjoys doing the poking is going to not be taken seriously.

The rebuttal then is to sayno measurements show that pheneonom is non-existent

You don't have to poke the bear to get chased. As are objectivist bears are territorial. Notwistanding there are plenty of salmon in the stream for everyone you may still get chased. Anecdotal reports turn into hypothesis on occasion. This is a discussion group where people report thier auditons by anecdote Usually without evince. Those who have the ability perform measurements. In some instances the measurements have been done previoullsly and can be researched. Almost universally measurements have to be tweaked and interpreted. Can the ears be trusted is a conclusory question requiring a conclusory answer. Even if we could provide a definitive answer, what bearing does it have on any particular audiophile clai?. My profession allows to handle being proved wrong publicly much more than the average person. Being told I'm wrong does not bother me. Being told I'm stupid,biased effectively delusional,or a liier that's a different strory.

Web have a thread hear where a member has demanded measurement based arguments only in order that hypster subjectivists can't derail it. It probably will not be enforced. Nevertheless don't put it all on one camp.

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, just to make sure I was confident in my memory of what my Taylor acoustic guitar sounds like, I went and played it after your post. Sure enough, it sounded exactly the same as I remembered it. I think if we ever get to the point that we begin to question our own senses, particularly our hearing sense and our acoustic memory, we need to step back and re-group a little.... IMO. Remember, music can and does have a strong impact on our senses, it can bring great joy, but it can also bring sorrow and even rarely, depression.

I totally agree; we are confident of the sounds that our ears love. And it's the largest matter of all when it comes to music.

Davey, in my prior post regarding "confidence" I should have explained in what I was referring to, I apolofize for that.
I was thinking of the music system reproduction...the electronics, the gear, the mechanical electrical loudspeakers in our rooms.
And some of us are always looking for improving that confidence level by exploring sounds in different rooms...audio shows, friends, and by changing our gear, trying different interconnects, speakers, amplifiers, wires, strings in our guitars, improving our room's acoustics, etc.
But not everyone is so confident in exploring, for various reasons...one not everyone can afford, two not everyone is willing, three for some the confidence level on their love for the music they hear from their ears and communicated to their soul is high enough to be satisfied enough in balance with their live's overall activities.

I was questioning myself in that confidence level to put things on a realistic perspective. What my ears like, and I have no other choice than to trust my ears or I wouldn't be here posting, is not what others like...some yes, but probably most don't. And that's why I was questioning our confidence level because it's different for each person.

We always refer to ourselves, to our own senses and beliefs from our senses...audition. Seeing other member's system setups, I can only imagine about my own confidence level...and all the emotions in the world won't change the fact that some people are much more advanced in the hearing confidence level, with some of the best gear and a great set of ears.

Is a system well balanced and set up in a room well treated can provide a higher confidence level in trusting our ears and @ providing a higher emotional intensity? ...Yes, certainly.
I am aware and I accept different states on confidence level. I have no other choice than to trust my ears today one day @ a time...it is up to me to build that trust to the next plateau. ...I don't believe that anyone can ever reach the ultimate nirvana...it's an illusion that doesn't exist in a material/spiritual world on Earth.
People from Timbuktu, people climbing K2...or the Everest, monks from Kathmandu, audiophiles here @ WBF, ...they are living the ultimate nirvana when they keep searching for it...it is in the search itself that we are "living the dream". I am quite confident of it...as much confident as the who is enjoying the music in the now and not thinking.

All am truly saying is the wind that we can all feel, even if some of us don't hear it or didn't see it coming. ...We all feel.

 

[treitz3]

Hello all who are following this thread. I would just like to point out that a while back, I polled the WBF on whether or not they trusted their ears. The results didn't surprise me but with this latest thread? Here is a link to the poll >>> http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?11768-Do-you-trust-your-ears

For those who don't want to click on the link, here are the results;

78% of the WBF trusted their ears.
18% of the WBF did not trust their ears.
4% of the WBF were still on the fence with the question of whether or not they trusted their ears.

Just thought I'd throw these facts into the discussion.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

Nice post microstrip. I consider myself one of the lucky ones. I have written many times that proper set up is paramount to great sound. So there was much more than luck involved in the setting up of my system. I hired Jim Smith to voice my system to my room after I had carefully selected the gear and read his book. Jim technique involved measuring the frequency response of the lower octaves to best locate the seating position in my room. From there, everything was done by careful and critical listening to extremely familiar music that he brought on his DAC/computer. However, once we got the speakers close to their final locations, out came the laser measuring device. Everything was then precisely positioned within 1/16th". At that point, it all locked it. He listened once again to a soprano that he reserves for the final confirmation listen, and declared that he was satisfied.

The sound of my system, and I am sure many others here, is not the result of simply listening and getting lucky. There is much more methodology involved, but, as you so well point out, there is not much controlled double blind testing going on, simply because it is far too impractical to do it in the home setting by a bunch of hobbyists.

Like many others here, I also reinforce my beliefs with the great positive stories, by hearing other great systems, and by listening to live music.

How much do you trust your ears Peter? ...After reading your post with great delight, there isn't much to add or to argue. ...Chapeau to a great post full of common sense, and with some excellent reasons to trust your ears even more so.

Do you use one subwoofer or two, Peter? ...How accurately low can you go in your own room? ...Can you hear all the ambiance on all your music recordings? ...The reverbs of the music hall, of the cello, the distinctive sustain of the piano strings reverberating inside their home (the piano box)? How confident are you that everything is there that needs to be there in order to improve your emotional level to the highest plateau possible?
Are you "totally" satisfied"...yourself?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I trust my ears partly because I have no way of measuring anything. I don't own any tools for the job, am not about to spend money on something I'll use once or twice, and certainly cannot afford to bring someone in. My ears will have to do.

 

[NorthStar]

Hello all who are following this thread. I would just like to point out that a while back, I polled the WBF on whether or not they trusted their ears. The results didn't surprise me but with this latest thread? Here is a link to the poll >>> http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?11768-Do-you-trust-your-ears

For those who don't want to click on the link, here are the results;

78% of the WBF trusted their ears.
18% of the WBF did not trust their ears.
4% of the WBF were still on the fence with the question of whether or not they trusted their ears.

Just thought I'd throw these facts into the discussion.

Tom

Wow! ...Not only I don't trust my ears (how can I; I've never heard the perfect best) but I also don't trust polls with that much confidence from the vast majority of people. ;-)
But I do respect the human condition with all the beliefs and flaws. '-D

Not all music recordings were recorded equally. Some of the very best are only accessible to the few fortunate ones. And other great ones are accessible to most of all.

A musician is playing his instrument, the piano, with emotional verve. Us the listeners, or of live or of a reproduction, we feel different emotions than the musician/artist creator.
That's the magic we can all trust and be confident about.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I trust my ears partly because I have no way of measuring anything. I don't own any tools for the job, am not about to spend money on something I'll use once or twice, and certainly cannot afford to bring someone in. My ears will have to do.

Many of us are in the same boat. My ears are the final arbiter if there are choices to be made. I do not have a problem with that. If there is a problem, it occurs when some disdainfully and totally reject published measurements made by others. Yes, measurements and how they were made have to be carefully scrutinized to assess how trustworthy they are. And, measurements should in no way preclude listening for one's self. But, measurements can have useful and significant input to the equipment selection process, as well as in setup and tuning one's system.

In that regard, the easy and inexpensive ability for audiophiles themselves to measure their room as part of an acoustic treatment or Room EQ process has been a major positive breakthrough of the past decade or so. That is one form of measurement I do make myself, and I am hooked on it. The rewards are quite substantial in their improvement of the subsequent listening for pure musical pleasure.

 

[NorthStar]

Ohhhhh my goodness!

This is my latest audio purchase which arrived this afternoon:

On top of this, I must have bought 40 to 50 HD downloads, and 30+ CDs this month. I just built my new audio server and been testing Dirac Live and Roon. Would someone explain to me how I am not a music lover or audiophile because I don't trust my ears fully whether some new gear or tweak made a positive difference?

I have to quote you again Amir; it's about Ed's music recordings. I am listening to one of the CDs he sent me right now, in my main listening chair, inside my main listening room.
Normally I would be sitting outside on my veranda with the birds singing and the trees dancing with the winds, and listening to classical music in the background, just like I was doing this morning, but even with one of my subwoofers out of service I decided to proceed...the music curiosity level had the better of me.

WoW! What can I say; one CD of Classical music recorded by Ed and it is so well recorded and full of "in the here now" realism!
It is beautiful, and I only listened to few minutes so far...but I knew right away that this was something special and pure passion. It sounds phenomenal!
There is much more to listen to...so I'll get back later...but so far...if you love classical music (chamber Classical) like I do, Ed first CD music listening so far is the "real" deal.
I can only imagine what a treat it will be for you regarding the tape you just bought from him, ...please Amir give us your impressions after you finished listening to it.

It is a lovely day. :b

 

[DaveyF]

I totally agree; we are confident of the sounds that our ears love. And it's the largest matter of all when it comes to music.

Davey, in my prior post regarding "confidence" I should have explained in what I was referring to, I apolofize for that.
I was thinking of the music system reproduction...the electronics, the gear, the mechanical electrical loudspeakers in our rooms.
And some of us are always looking for improving that confidence level by exploring sounds in different rooms...audio shows, friends, and by changing our gear, trying different interconnects, speakers, amplifiers, wires, strings in our guitars, improving our room's acoustics, etc.
But not everyone is so confident in exploring, for various reasons...one not everyone can afford, two not everyone is willing, three for some the confidence level on their love for the music they hear from their ears and communicated to their soul is high enough to be satisfied enough in balance with their live's overall activities.

I was questioning myself in that confidence level to put things on a realistic perspective. What my ears like, and I have no other choice than to trust my ears or I wouldn't be here posting, is not what others like...some yes, but probably most don't. And that's why I was questioning our confidence level because it's different for each person.

We always refer to ourselves, to our own senses and beliefs from our senses...audition. Seeing other member's system setups, I can only imagine about my own confidence level...and all the emotions in the world won't change the fact that some people are much more advanced in the hearing confidence level, with some of the best gear and a great set of ears.

Is a system well balanced and set up in a room well treated can provide a higher confidence level in trusting our ears and @ providing a higher emotional intensity? ...Yes, certainly.
I am aware and I accept different states on confidence level. I have no other choice than to trust my ears today one day @ a time...it is up to me to build that trust to the next plateau. ...I don't believe that anyone can ever reach the ultimate nirvana...it's an illusion that doesn't exist in a material/spiritual world on Earth.
People from Timbuktu, people climbing K2...or the Everest, monks from Kathmandu, audiophiles here @ WBF, ...they are living the ultimate nirvana when they keep searching for it...it is in the search itself that we are "living the dream". I am quite confident of it...as much confident as the who is enjoying the music in the now and not thinking.

All am truly saying is the wind that we can all feel, even if some of us don't hear it or didn't see it coming. ...We all feel.

Ok, so now I see your point. The hobby that we are talking about is one where it is not only easy to make a mistake, but also for it to be costly. A pity, as this is probably one of the things that has put off many people in the past. As the pricing structure of the hobby continues on its upward track, I suspect the number of people that will be put-off by that fact alone will only increase.
Somebody long ago asked me to calculate how much it would cost them to enter into the hobby and acquire a good system, vs. acquire annual tickets to the best seat in the local concert hall. An interesting comparison...and one which I suspect most non-a'philes calculate in their head!

 

[BlueFox]

I think an interesting topic is Audiophiles who do not have confidence in their ability to hear.

I have absolute confidence in my ability to believe what I am hearing. Anybody else?

Of course. I can't imagine how anyone could even consider not trusting their ears. Last year I broke the midrange in my left speaker, and it manifested itself as an occasional slight distortion when a violin hit a certain frequency. My ears told me something isn't right. After it was fixed my ears told me everything is now fine. The whole point of this hobby is to play music that sounds good to you. If the distortion I heard from the bad midrange was normal then I would have sold the speakers, and found something else that my ears tell me is good. If your hearing is so bad you can't trust your ears then you are probably in the wrong hobby.

 

[spiritofmusic]

It can be easy to be misled, very easy.
Back in the 90's when I was rabidly anti digital, and bored everyone at parties to tears w/my pro lp rants, a similarly analog centric friend and I went to the demo of a well respected one brand system.
When some music came on, and surface noise could be heard on the first piece of music, we sat there enthralled about how great the turntable was. When a pristinely quiet recording came on second, we booed and hissed at the syntheticness of the cdp.
Then it was revealed a cd had been playing first which had surface noise recorded into the track, and the lp playing second was the most noise free one the demo master could find.
Blushes all 'round!

 

[BlueFox]

A while back, I was playing poker at a friend's house, and he was playing background music. While it was playing across the room, I could hear something was not right. I went and looked at the turntable, and the speed had slightly drifted off. I made the slight tweak to fix it, and then others commented that it now sounded better.

 

[PeterA]

Does your room have any form of acoustic treatment, why did he only measure the lower octaves?
Keith.

Keith, there are photos and commentary about my room in my virtual system. Just follow the link in my signature. You should write to Jim Smith directly if you have any questions about his methodology. There is a lot of information on his website.

 

[Andre Marc]

Of course. I can't imagine how anyone could even consider not trusting their ears. Last year I broke the midrange in my left speaker, and it manifested itself as an occasional slight distortion when a violin hit a certain frequency. My ears told me something isn't right. After it was fixed my ears told me everything is now fine. The whole point of this hobby is to play music that sounds good to you. If the distortion I heard from the bad midrange was normal then I would have sold the speakers, and found something else that my ears tell me is good. If your hearing is so bad you can't trust your ears then you are probably in the wrong hobby.

Yes, agree with your last sentence.

True story. I was at an audiophile gathering hosted by a well do to fellow with a great system..top of the line Martin Logan's, BAT pre and power amps, Cardas cables, you name it. everybody was enjoying the music...having beers etc..but.something did not sound right to me..I could not shake it..I looked behind the preamp and sure enough the channels were reversed.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I had a session the other night. Something just didn't sound right as the music never captured me. Four beers later and all was well!

 

[Andre Marc]

I had a session the other night. Something just didn't sound right as the music never captured me. Four beers later and all was well!

Now that is GOOD medicine. We are spoiled down here..a gastro pub and a micro brewery on every damn corner..Has a Blood Orange Wit last night!

 

[Gregadd]

top of the line Martin Logan's,

Nobody else cares .Statement or CKX?

 

[treitz3]

As long as we are exposing our experiences, I feel as if I should expose mine....or at least one of them.

In a room of all audiophiles listening to a system that was highly touted throughout the years as a highly regarded rig, I was passing through as 20-30 folks were critically listening. As I passed by, something was amiss and I felt the need to point this out. I said that something was wrong with the right speaker with the upper frequencies. Everybody....and I do mean everybody turned around to me. They stopped the music. After much heat from those who were "critically listening" stating that I was "out of my mind", to put it mildly....they carried on with the musical selection they were listening too.

As I walked in a while later, the system was shut down. I asked them as to why and they responded that the right speaker had blown "something" and that they could no longer listen. After joining in with the "fun" of troubleshooting the issue, it was discovered that a capacitor in the upper circuit of the right speaker had fried.

Since we were up on a mountain and had limited resources to repair said speaker, we resorted to replace it with a cap that was "close" to the original capacitor. While that cap may have been "sufficient" for those who wanted to continue on, I could CLEARLY tell without any doubt that the sound had changed and that the right speaker was now offset from that of the left.

Some that have known me for some time may remember this. For those that don't, I do not need the objectivists to chime in asking me to "prove it". It's just a part of my history, my experience that adds to the thread. Discount it, laugh at it or take it seriously. Personally, I don't really care. All I know is that based upon situations like this (and there are many more instances), I trust my ears...for they do not lie.

At least mine don't.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

How much do you trust your ears Peter? ...After reading your post with great delight, there isn't much to add or to argue. ...Chapeau to a great post full of common sense, and with some excellent reasons to trust your ears even more so.

Do you use one subwoofer or two, Peter? ...How accurately low can you go in your own room? ...Can you hear all the ambiance on all your music recordings? ...The reverbs of the music hall, of the cello, the distinctive sustain of the piano strings reverberating inside their home (the piano box)? How confident are you that everything is there that needs to be there in order to improve your emotional level to the highest plateau possible?
Are you "totally" satisfied"...yourself?

Thank you NorthStar.

You have asked many questions. I will try to answer them.

1. I trust my ears to a degree.* But I fully recognize that measuring instruments can detect details about the sound which I can not do to nearly the same degree.
2. I do not use subwoofers. I tried two JL Audio F110s and hired a professional to properly integrate them into my system. We preferred the overall sound without them.
3. The frequency response of my room is down about 3db in the mid to high 20s. The plot is in my system thread.
4. I have no way of knowing if I hear "all the ambiance", the "reverbs" etc. I assume not. I also assume they were not all captured in the recording. And I don't think I hear everything from my concert seat, G22, either. I am sure there is some hearing loss. I do have my hearing checked every three years. My audiologist tells me it is extremely good for my age.
5. I am confident that not everything is there that needs to be there in order to improve my emotional level....One listen to MadFloyd's system tells me that. Also my sessions at the BSO.
6. No, I am not totally satisfied. One example is the cartridge comparison I am now doing. I like different aspects of each cartridge. I would be more satisfied with one cartridge that could combine the best attributes of each. But I am satisfied enough to not have changed anything for more than two years. System changes are very slow and deliberate.

*Quick story: I was at a demo of the Wilson Sasha at a local dealer. People had been listening for a while and seemed quite impressed. I walked into the room and listened. Something was clearly wrong. I mentioned my observation to the salesman who said that everything sounded fine. I asked him to check the cables because the system sounded out of phase to me. Sure enough, they had reversed the wires in one speaker. They fixed the problem and everyone agreed that it sounded better. The salesman was probably embarrassed.

So I trust my ears to some degree. Certainly enough to enjoy live music and use it as a reference to judge the performance of my own system. I installed MadFloyd's new cartridge the other day and trusted my ears enough to set the proper VTA, VTF, loading, and other settings. I think that I recognized the greatness of MadFloyd's new speakers and system before he did because it sounded very much like my own reference system which has basically stayed the same for a few years. Once I heard a similar sound, but considerably better in terms of resolution and scale, I knew that he had a truly great system that just needed a bit of fine tuning to reach its potential.

I told another member here that I thought his room was over damped the last time I heard his system. He told me tonight that I was right and that he is now adjusting some of his room furnishings and treatment.

So yes, I trust my ears to some extent. They are certainly not perfect, and they are aging. And I know that certain measurements can tell us more than the best pair of ears.

Perhaps the best answer I can give to your question of how much do I trust my ears is written above by BlueFox. It is an excellent post. I quote him here:

"Of course. I can't imagine how anyone could even consider not trusting their ears. Last year I broke the midrange in my left speaker, and it manifested itself as an occasional slight distortion when a violin hit a certain frequency. My ears told me something isn't right. After it was fixed my ears told me everything is now fine. The whole point of this hobby is to play music that sounds good to you. If the distortion I heard from the bad midrange was normal then I would have sold the speakers, and found something else that my ears tell me is good. If your hearing is so bad you can't trust your ears then you are probably in the wrong hobby."