Amir, My intention was not to provide you with a data point. I am sorry that I was not clear and that you misunderstood me. I think that the Science Forum is a more appropriate place for collecting data points and discussing audio science. I was just recounting a simple story that seemed related to the topic we were discussing, which I thought was subjective observations while evaluating audio gear and whether or not we trust our ears in doing so.
Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...
- Thread starter Andre Marc
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Amir, My intention was not to provide you with a data point. I am sorry that I was not clear and that you misunderstood me. I think that the Science Forum is a more appropriate place for collecting data points and discussing audio science. I was just recounting a simple story that seemed related to the topic we were discussing, which I thought was subjective observations while evaluating audio gear and whether or not we trust our ears in doing so.
A blind test - ie using the ears to hear changes in sound waves/soundfield as a function of the audio gear as opposed to changes in stimulus in the brain as a function of biases, prejudices, mood swings, day dreaming etc, etc, etc, Placebo, etc.
Possibly "hearing" day dreams, mood swings, changes in memory, level mismatches, bias overloading, etc, etc, etc, what was read in the magazine/website, expectations - all of these possibilities exist given the casual nature of the "listening". You know, using the ears, the brain, eyes, knowledge, etc.
Yes, blind testing is universally employed in science - all fields of science and for good reason.
You need to brush up on psychoacoustics and psychology. You can call it nonsense if you'd like, but it's established fact.
If you prefer A to B then that's fine, prefer away. If you claim the gear affected the sound (ie physical sound waves), then you are making objective claims in need of support. This is usually where audiophiles fall flat on their faces.
Track record to date when supporting audibility claims in controlled conditions where the ears are concerned are, well, not so good. However while peeking .. knowing, expecting, feeling ... different story. ; - )
More nonsense & gibberish strung together, these aren't facts just your projections! Controlled conditions, designed by whom and to what standards? To what end and purpose? None of what you preach has anything to do with the main activity. This is a luxury hobby related to music listening for personal satisfaction, put a disc on, sit back and enjoy; or not! And of course audiophiles can make objective claims about sound quality based on their personal observations as they wish, you can agree or disagree but there's no obligation to support it with anything. It's exactly this kind of mental masturbation that can prevent people from sharing their experiences. You can't just make up rules for others, and what do most of us care about psychology or pshyco-acoustics? Do you have a degree in either one?
david
True story from last night:
I was listening to 'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey' on Blu-ray and in 3D.
On Disc 2 (Part 2) about half way, I heard a noise (a distortion click), I open the door and checked outside; nothing.
I keep watching the movie and the noise again, but louder (not that loud though); I put my hand on the driver of my left subwoofer, because the noise came from there, and the driver wasn't moving. I then put a section of the film on a loop (A-B) where the two giant rocks are fighting...I checked the right sub, it was ok, but the left one wasn't.
I performed several tests, and then I shut everything off, and I removed the sub's back plate amp. The fuse was ok, a resistor was black. I performed more tests, and checked all the wiring, driver, interconnect (even tried another one)...blah-blah-blah ... couple hours later I gave up and packed the plate amp ready to go to the audio doctor.
...Next week If I have the time. And I added about 6dB to the other sub...to compensate...till I get the left one repaired...it could take a while because the tech guy is very very busy with backlog.
If I would not have heard the noise I would probably keep watching movies for another ten years or more without noticing something was amiss.
It happened too before with tweeters...in a multichannel system setup...but I am more sensitive to higher frequencies and I eventually get them repaired.
No way that I can trust my ears @ 100% for sounds, music. Tests (measurements) are essential to the complete picture.
You can easily verify that with your subwoofer(s) while listening to music...it would take dedication, concentration, suspicion, a certain music recording that you are quite familiar with and that has good bass content. Plus, when you have multiple subs, if one goes out, you'd have difficulty to trust your ears...I truly believe.
Moral of last night true story: Without that small popping noise, which was the only clue, today I would be slaved to my untrustworthy set of older ears.
The rest is ephemeral...we live with our human handicaps and we think we know stuff when in actual truth we know not much when it comes to trusting our ears.
I might not be an audiophile of the caliber of some of us here, but I am a sound maniac. The proof; it was late last night when I decided to proceed with all that stuff, instead of going to bed. And this morning I was still @ it...repeating all my prior tests to confirm the plate amp's sudden death.
We do what we do because we love it; we love the action, the challenges, the emotional impact, the music, the films, the sounds, the moving pictures, ...the full audio spectrum.
We're different than the rest; we're maniacal audiophiles with a sound obsession. ...We are normal, but we are different, very.
Our ears alone is not enough, our emotions alone are not enough...tests and measurements are part of the total equation...like some members already mentioned here in this thread.
Have a splendid weekend everyone...and don't stress too much...it could be much much worst...like having a heart attack and passing out, for good.
We all enjoy our ears, but we simply cannot trust them because they are not perfect...they are our downfall to our audio ecstasy...way of speech.
I was listening to 'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey' on Blu-ray and in 3D.
On Disc 2 (Part 2) about half way, I heard a noise (a distortion click), I open the door and checked outside; nothing.
I keep watching the movie and the noise again, but louder (not that loud though); I put my hand on the driver of my left subwoofer, because the noise came from there, and the driver wasn't moving. I then put a section of the film on a loop (A-B) where the two giant rocks are fighting...I checked the right sub, it was ok, but the left one wasn't.
I performed several tests, and then I shut everything off, and I removed the sub's back plate amp. The fuse was ok, a resistor was black. I performed more tests, and checked all the wiring, driver, interconnect (even tried another one)...blah-blah-blah ... couple hours later I gave up and packed the plate amp ready to go to the audio doctor.
...Next week If I have the time. And I added about 6dB to the other sub...to compensate...till I get the left one repaired...it could take a while because the tech guy is very very busy with backlog.
If I would not have heard the noise I would probably keep watching movies for another ten years or more without noticing something was amiss.
It happened too before with tweeters...in a multichannel system setup...but I am more sensitive to higher frequencies and I eventually get them repaired.
No way that I can trust my ears @ 100% for sounds, music. Tests (measurements) are essential to the complete picture.
You can easily verify that with your subwoofer(s) while listening to music...it would take dedication, concentration, suspicion, a certain music recording that you are quite familiar with and that has good bass content. Plus, when you have multiple subs, if one goes out, you'd have difficulty to trust your ears...I truly believe.
Moral of last night true story: Without that small popping noise, which was the only clue, today I would be slaved to my untrustworthy set of older ears.
The rest is ephemeral...we live with our human handicaps and we think we know stuff when in actual truth we know not much when it comes to trusting our ears.
I might not be an audiophile of the caliber of some of us here, but I am a sound maniac. The proof; it was late last night when I decided to proceed with all that stuff, instead of going to bed. And this morning I was still @ it...repeating all my prior tests to confirm the plate amp's sudden death.
We do what we do because we love it; we love the action, the challenges, the emotional impact, the music, the films, the sounds, the moving pictures, ...the full audio spectrum.
We're different than the rest; we're maniacal audiophiles with a sound obsession. ...We are normal, but we are different, very.
Our ears alone is not enough, our emotions alone are not enough...tests and measurements are part of the total equation...like some members already mentioned here in this thread.
Have a splendid weekend everyone...and don't stress too much...it could be much much worst...like having a heart attack and passing out, for good.
We all enjoy our ears, but we simply cannot trust them because they are not perfect...they are our downfall to our audio ecstasy...way of speech.
I used the term "data point" not in scientific manner but as a figure of speech. That is, you did exactly what you said at the end above. You used that story to demonstrate, i.e. have it count as a data point, that the ear can be trusted. You made a change, your friend said he heard it "blind," ergo the ear was to be trusted.
I explained that this isn't so. He pulled a "Crazy Ivan." He was put in a situation of being tested. His credentials as an audiophile and one with good hearing was challenged in the test. So he made an educated test that if you are pulling him into that situation, there must have been a difference. So whether he heard something for real, or imagined he heard something, he decided to say there was a change. Whether he was sure or not.
In that regard, the experiment you ran and told us, does not add weight, again, add a data point, to the conversation. I can tell you countless such stories where the outcome was shown to be the exact opposite. Just a few days ago I had my brother over and I played a tape for him. A bit later he started to tell me to listen to lows and highs and that tape is weak in those areas, pointing out the parts when that was the case in music we were hearing. As he was going on, I had to stop him strenuously and tell him we were then playing a CD, not the tape!
The tape was still spinning so he thought it was that which we were listening to. You learn from these stories, not accidental lucky ones that reinforce your beliefs .
If we think of a stereo system as a stimulus designed to provoke a perception,we then see that the perception is never wrong.
it is the stimuli that is ineffective. That is it failed to provoke the deisred perception. In this audiophile hobby I have witnessed the evolution of that stimulus. Objectivist argue it is not the stimulus that is faulty but the audiophile. That would be the tail wagging the dog.
it is the stimuli that is ineffective. That is it failed to provoke the deisred perception. In this audiophile hobby I have witnessed the evolution of that stimulus. Objectivist argue it is not the stimulus that is faulty but the audiophile. That would be the tail wagging the dog.
If you don't trust your ears then you aren't much of a music lover, let alone an audiophile. How the music sounds to you is all that matters. If something is wrong then your ears will let you know. If everything is fine then your ears will let you know.
I don't know where these new definitions come from. The definition of being a music lover means to love music, not equipment. In that sense, the real test of a music lover is enjoying music in any form of fidelity. Which runs totally counter to all the things we do to pursue fidelity.
As to being an audiophile, the definition of that is loving music and appreciating its fidelity at the same time.
Neither one of these have anything to do with "trusting your ear" that moving that wire up one inch from the floor made the sound better or worse. As was mentioned, that is a conclusion reached from an experiment having nothing to do with loving music or not. Being audiophile or not. It is all about justifying some action taken in your audio hardware pursuit which we all share. But in different ways.
Let me note personally that I am very disappointed to see such divisive commentary. We better not let go of the immense amount we share in common in an empty quest to win some argument in these matters.
What of science and blind tests?
The last thing I am in search of is a bling test debate, I love the phrase.."those who seek the chaperone of science..." There are thiose those who yield the temr, blind test as though it was a sword slaying any subjectivist claims they are skeptical about. But a blind component is merely one part of true scientific test for small differences in audio devices. In fact it is a very small part. So we talk qs though we know how to conduct such tests. Hpw many of us know how to match levels. Or are aware of a scientific definition for it. Do we know how many participants we need , the number of trials to run or how to analyze the statistical resuls. For example suppose someone gets the answers all wrong. Is that statistically significant.
I was in a debate and someone referred me to BS 1116. Have you heard of it?
When it comes to science be careful what you wish for. You might get it.
The last thing I am in search of is a bling test debate, I love the phrase.."those who seek the chaperone of science..." There are thiose those who yield the temr, blind test as though it was a sword slaying any subjectivist claims they are skeptical about. But a blind component is merely one part of true scientific test for small differences in audio devices. In fact it is a very small part. So we talk qs though we know how to conduct such tests. Hpw many of us know how to match levels. Or are aware of a scientific definition for it. Do we know how many participants we need , the number of trials to run or how to analyze the statistical resuls. For example suppose someone gets the answers all wrong. Is that statistically significant.
I was in a debate and someone referred me to BS 1116. Have you heard of it?
When it comes to science be careful what you wish for. You might get it.
This is my latest audio purchase which arrived this afternoon:
On top of this, I must have bought 40 to 50 HD downloads, and 30+ CDs this month. I just built my new audio server and been testing Dirac Live and Roon. Would someone explain to me how I am not a music lover or audiophile because I don't trust my ears fully whether some new gear or tweak made a positive difference?
On top of this, I must have bought 40 to 50 HD downloads, and 30+ CDs this month. I just built my new audio server and been testing Dirac Live and Roon. Would someone explain to me how I am not a music lover or audiophile because I don't trust my ears fully whether some new gear or tweak made a positive difference?
Of course. It is a set of international recommendations for evaluation of small audible differences. What would you like to know about it?
Please take caution in your tone. I put this notice earlier in the thread and I mean it:
Sanctions will be handed out if members stay in the thread only to be unhappy.
Double blind test can be consifdered one of instrumental measurement methods, in my opinion. Like spectrum analysis as example.
I want add only that fully correct blind test is not simple procedure.
It demand: big number participants / listenings (100/100 as example), pro switching software / hardware with certified distortions, right methodic and careful organizing.
However spectrum analysis allow compare 2 devices faster and more accurate for non-linear distortions, as example.
Blind test can be used for detecting threshold of perception of different apparatus distortions as in complex as separately.
If we know these thresholds we can use only measurements via hardware tools.
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This is my latest audio purchase which arrived this afternoon:
On top of this, I must have bought 40 to 50 HD downloads, and 30+ CDs this month. I just built my new audio server and been testing Dirac Live and Roon. Would someone explain to me how I am not a music lover or audiophile because I don't trust my ears fully whether some new gear or tweak made a positive difference?
I will be very interested in your findings with Roon. I am waiting for them to make a control app that will work with any UPnP/DLNA renderer. I have my doubts about if it will survive but i must say it looks amazing on paper.
Don't want to spoil the surprise
, but I am completely sold on it! I will write more detail on it but it is wonderfully executed music software. Can't recommend it enough.
Don't want to spoil the surprise
No kidding. Did you buy the year or, the lifetime subscription?
They auto-charged me for yearly after my trial but I want to get lifetime and just asked them how to convert. I am doing that both to save money long term but importantly, support them with extra cash in the short-term for developing such good software.
I am going to take a leap of faith and trust my eyes (the good one anyway) to guess that is a reel to reel tape deck. Smile.This is my latest audio purchase which arrived this afternoon:
On top of this, I must have bought 40 to 50 HD downloads, and 30+ CDs this month. I just built my new audio server and been testing Dirac Live and Roon. Would someone explain to me how I am not a music lover or audiophile because I don't trust my ears fully whether some new gear or tweak made a positive difference?
I must confess as s
i just ran across a Jeff Foxworth (of You might be a redneck fame) type article titled "you might be an audiophile." You can find it through Google. I recall some saying Seattle Seahawk Qb ,Russell Wilson,was not Black enough. I guarantee you obtaining a multi-million dollar job that was traditionally reserved for white men made him keenly aware of his blackness. I recently posted a definition of audiophile that I found in the dictionary...someone who is enthusiastic about sound(music)reproduction. That includes us all. Even those who take advantage of every opportunity to disparage not only audiophiles, the industry and I might add the stereo construct.
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