Avantgarde Horn Speakers
- Thread starter Big Dog RJ
- Start date
Looking at your graph i think your first measurement postion( listening position) was the best / most balanced .
If you want to reduce the out put at 4-5 khz a bit you can increase your listening angle / measurement angle by turning the speaker more straight firing .
It looks your re last measurement was may be done with your horns more toed in ? smaller measurement angle ?
Hence the mid / high freq bump
your last 1/6 smoothed measurement regarding the 800- 3000 hz range looks fine
What if you smooth your first measurement to 1/6 or 1/3 ?
May be you ll end up with +- 3 db over the curve
If you want to reduce the out put at 4-5 khz a bit you can increase your listening angle / measurement angle by turning the speaker more straight firing .
It looks your re last measurement was may be done with your horns more toed in ? smaller measurement angle ?
Hence the mid / high freq bump
your last 1/6 smoothed measurement regarding the 800- 3000 hz range looks fine
What if you smooth your first measurement to 1/6 or 1/3 ?
May be you ll end up with +- 3 db over the curve
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Seems that the position of the mic could have caused the dip after 1k. What was the distance to the speakers (and height of the mic)?
Nice one Adagio!
Very simple and clean, that's what I'm talking about. The simpler the route, with high quality parts and the shortest possible signal paths, will deliver pristine definition and clarity. AG horns are no ordinary horns, and when set up right, they can sound superb! Whether they're driven by tubes or SS doesn't matter, there's no perfect amplifier in that regard. It's all about trial and error and getting the most from your particular setup. AG even makes their own SS amplifiers to match with their speakers. I've heard their amps driving the Duo XD's and it was quite good. That's going back a few years though and a deposit was paid... but ended up going with stats. I think that was about the time I started this thread.
It's certainly nice to see this thread still holding strong since Feb 2014... and having those AG fans on board. Certainly a passionate bunch!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ
Equalizing the measurement is not allowed .
no cheatingIf you want to have an honest idea what is going on you have to accept the measurement as is .
What one could do is buy a Cello audio pallete , in that way you tune the FR without changing the X over.
EQ is totally ok to, that's why there is DSP in the active woofer amplifiers
Please use the "camera" button in the upper left corner to save screenshots and keep SPL range at 60dB scale. If you follow the general instruction to measure at 75dB then maximum could be set to 95dB and minimum to 35dB.
It's sometimes helpful to keep smoothing at around 1/24 to detect mode frequencies more accurately. Don't try to compare with something a magazine would publish, they are trying to present the speaker as is, what we are interested is the speaker room interaction and what can be done with it with DSP.
Generally I would recommend finding the main issues by measuring and then fine tuning by ear. Trying to achieve flat response most likely will sound suboptimal. Personally I find the waterfall graph very helpful to see where I need to cut some energy away from.
There are plenty of memory slots available, use them to create different corrections and to compare which ones you prefer. You can make your Avantgardes to sound very different with different adjustments and with some experimenting can be matched to pretty much any room
Please use the "camera" button in the upper left corner to save screenshots and keep SPL range at 60dB scale. If you follow the general instruction to measure at 75dB then maximum could be set to 95dB and minimum to 35dB.
It's sometimes helpful to keep smoothing at around 1/24 to detect mode frequencies more accurately. Don't try to compare with something a magazine would publish, they are trying to present the speaker as is, what we are interested is the speaker room interaction and what can be done with it with DSP.
Generally I would recommend finding the main issues by measuring and then fine tuning by ear. Trying to achieve flat response most likely will sound suboptimal. Personally I find the waterfall graph very helpful to see where I need to cut some energy away from.
There are plenty of memory slots available, use them to create different corrections and to compare which ones you prefer. You can make your Avantgardes to sound very different with different adjustments and with some experimenting can be matched to pretty much any room
My scaffold-free slimline Duo XDs. Improved isolation between bass enclosure and mid horn as a bonus. My cradle options in steel or MDF as per Mezzo.
Ah! Nice one there Hear Here.
I think you've embarked on a very good project, worked it through and seemed to have obtained the results you were after. That's an achievement!
Certainly quite a way from those ML hybrids that weren't a good fit for your room, as you correctly identified. That's the key to enjoying those fine tunes, getting the basics right and not overdoing things. Keep it simple, address what's really needed, work out suitable requirements and it will excel.
Very glad to see it worked out, good stuff mate.
Cheers, now that deserves a mighty WOOF!
Best, RJ
I think you've embarked on a very good project, worked it through and seemed to have obtained the results you were after. That's an achievement!
Certainly quite a way from those ML hybrids that weren't a good fit for your room, as you correctly identified. That's the key to enjoying those fine tunes, getting the basics right and not overdoing things. Keep it simple, address what's really needed, work out suitable requirements and it will excel.
Very glad to see it worked out, good stuff mate.
Cheers, now that deserves a mighty WOOF!
Best, RJ
Attn: Marslo
Hey mate, just wondering how those REL subs are going? Have they blended in nicely with those Limited edition AG horns...?
BTW, do you still use the Ayon amplifier or is that in a different system now?
Always good to see and learn from well setup rooms and systems. It helps in every little way.
Cheers, RJ
Hey mate, just wondering how those REL subs are going? Have they blended in nicely with those Limited edition AG horns...?
BTW, do you still use the Ayon amplifier or is that in a different system now?
Always good to see and learn from well setup rooms and systems. It helps in every little way.
Cheers, RJ
It sure makes you wonder why Avantgarde still stick with the scaffolding when your modification is far superior in looks and performance outcome. Well done.
Great job.
One comment I wanted to make.
When I owned Avantgarde Duo G2, I have replaced original spikes with Stillpoints Ultra 5s using custom made thread inserts, sitting on Symposium Ultra platforms with Gabon Ebony planks in between.
I have found that combination to be significantly better than the stock footers. More relaxed, musical and at the same time more detailed presentation.
I'm using the same arrangement with my new speakers as well.
My post about REL Special Carbon tuning and further integration with Trios is upcoming….
Stay tuned
Thanks. Although the fancy adjustable spikes supplied with the Duo XDs look impressive, I agree with you that they can be improved upon. It very much depends on the flooring under the speakers - carpets, solid floor, suspended floor, etc. My floors are solid (oak bords on screed on concrete) and I find the IsoAcoustic Gaia Is do a pretty good job. Although the bass is not quite as loud, it's certainly much more detailed, so a worthwhile improvement as the volume can easily be adjusted if required. Fitting Gaia Is onto the existing Duo base frame is tricky as the Gaias have 12mm threads. A search of Ebay will come up with 8 - 12 mm adaptors. Then it's easy to fit the Gaias.
I also made modifications to my earlier Dous to "ditch the scaffolding" using an F bracket fitted to the rear of the bass enclosure.
As promised I want to share my recent experience with integration of my REL Carbon Special Subs with Trio LE 26.
The story starts in ... Liechtenstein where we have been together with my wife Barbara ( in Polish we call her Basia ) invited by - well known on WBF Christoph - and his wife , Monica.
For a long time I was very much interessted by Chrisoph setup ,espcially by Universum III horns which I knew only from audio shows . Christoph has also second impressive system with refurbished Apogees which I never listened too.
Because of the pandemic last 2 years we travel to France again by car and driving in Switzerland to St Bernardino we pass very close to Christoph place .
The end of July going back to Poland we had very nice dinner at Christophs, prepared by our charming hosts. And very interesting conversation too . Then we listened to both systems , mainly to Unis but also some time to Apogees which I liked very much .
Christoph has the room with beautiful view on Alpes , just behind the main system.
It is a fantastic sounding system on the warm side of the spectrum.
Talking is even more important than eating, drinking and listening and when we disscussed my recent problems with integration of subs with Trios Christoph suggested that I should try RCA connection between Ayon Crossfire and REL's using pre-out output. I tried this connection only with my second amp - Circle Labs A100 which has sub rca output , using unexpensive Melodika Y cables. I shared already my thoughts - just want to remind that I preferred speak-on connection and high level signal.
After installing Crossfire III back to my system I decided to follow Christoph's advice ( Christoph has also Cross III as a second amp ) and connected subs as shown in REL Manual, did some adjustment and listened to all my 3 sources - TT, sacd player and files.
It was a bit better than with A100 but I still preferred speak-on connection with REL Blue Line cables.
Reading again the manual I noticed the there is the phase switch which I not tried until now. My experience with subs in home cinema was that the change of phase did not influence the playback very much.
But when I switched the phase from 0 to 180 degrees in my Carbon Special the presentation changed completely.
My main problem until now was the lack of saturation in 40-80 Hz range and too much of 20-40 Hz range which resulted with overhangs on bad recordings . My crossover is set at around 100 Hz ( 3 o"clock PM) and the volume at 9 o'clock. It is a special so called Natural RollOff crossover by REL.
Now after changing the phase the 40-80 Hz range was fuller, richer ,more saturated and 20-30 Hz less pronounced.
All together it resulted in better integration of REL's with Trios. I could even say that now that bass and midrange mell seaminglessly.
Then I realised that in the test of Avantgarde Duo speakers the Polish reviewer Andrzej Kisiel pointed out that the phase in Avantgardes is reversed , he tried standard polarisation and he found it better . In my system I did not hear the difference and kept the standard connection.
I suppose that Avantgarde still uses the same reveresed phase in its circuity and switching phase in my REL' s adjusted the phase between Trios and REL's as it should be.
The connection I still did not try is .1 Input in my REL's in which the signal does not pass through the crossover circuit. To be continued ...
The story starts in ... Liechtenstein where we have been together with my wife Barbara ( in Polish we call her Basia ) invited by - well known on WBF Christoph - and his wife , Monica.
For a long time I was very much interessted by Chrisoph setup ,espcially by Universum III horns which I knew only from audio shows . Christoph has also second impressive system with refurbished Apogees which I never listened too.
Because of the pandemic last 2 years we travel to France again by car and driving in Switzerland to St Bernardino we pass very close to Christoph place .
The end of July going back to Poland we had very nice dinner at Christophs, prepared by our charming hosts. And very interesting conversation too . Then we listened to both systems , mainly to Unis but also some time to Apogees which I liked very much .
Christoph has the room with beautiful view on Alpes , just behind the main system.
It is a fantastic sounding system on the warm side of the spectrum.
Talking is even more important than eating, drinking and listening
and when we disscussed my recent problems with integration of subs with Trios Christoph suggested that I should try RCA connection between Ayon Crossfire and REL's using pre-out output. I tried this connection only with my second amp - Circle Labs A100 which has sub rca output , using unexpensive Melodika Y cables. I shared already my thoughts - just want to remind that I preferred speak-on connection and high level signal.After installing Crossfire III back to my system I decided to follow Christoph's advice ( Christoph has also Cross III as a second amp ) and connected subs as shown in REL Manual, did some adjustment and listened to all my 3 sources - TT, sacd player and files.
It was a bit better than with A100 but I still preferred speak-on connection with REL Blue Line cables.
Reading again the manual I noticed the there is the phase switch which I not tried until now. My experience with subs in home cinema was that the change of phase did not influence the playback very much.
But when I switched the phase from 0 to 180 degrees in my Carbon Special the presentation changed completely.
My main problem until now was the lack of saturation in 40-80 Hz range and too much of 20-40 Hz range which resulted with overhangs on bad recordings . My crossover is set at around 100 Hz ( 3 o"clock PM) and the volume at 9 o'clock. It is a special so called Natural RollOff crossover by REL.
Now after changing the phase the 40-80 Hz range was fuller, richer ,more saturated and 20-30 Hz less pronounced.
All together it resulted in better integration of REL's with Trios. I could even say that now that bass and midrange mell seaminglessly.
Then I realised that in the test of Avantgarde Duo speakers the Polish reviewer Andrzej Kisiel pointed out that the phase in Avantgardes is reversed , he tried standard polarisation and he found it better . In my system I did not hear the difference and kept the standard connection.
I suppose that Avantgarde still uses the same reveresed phase in its circuity and switching phase in my REL' s adjusted the phase between Trios and REL's as it should be.
The connection I still did not try is .1 Input in my REL's in which the signal does not pass through the crossover circuit. To be continued ...
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Sounds like a very interesting turn of events there Marslo.As promised I want to share my recent experience with integration of my REL Carbon Special Subs with Trio LE 26.
The story starts in ... Liechtenstein where we have been together with my wife Barbara ( in Polish we call her Basia ) invited by - well known on WBF Christoph - and his wife , Monica.
For a long time I was very much interessted by Chrisoph setup ,espcially by Universum III horns which I knew only from audio shows . Christoph has also second impressive system with refurbished Apogees which I never listened too.
Because of the pandemic last 2 years we travel to France again by car and driving in Switzerland to St Bernardino we pass very close to Christoph place .
The end of July going back to Poland we had very nice dinner at Christophs, prepared by our charming hosts. And very interesting conversation too . Then we listened to both systems , mainly to Unis but also some time to Apogees which I liked very much .
Christoph has the room with beautiful view on Alpes , just behind the main system.
It is a fantastic sounding system on the warm side of the spectrum.
Talking is even more important than eating, drinking and listening
After installing Crossfire III back to my system I decided to follow Christoph's advice ( Christoph has also Cross III as a second amp ) and connected subs as shown in REL Manual, did some adjustment and listened to all my 3 sources - TT, sacd player and files.
It was a bit better than with A100 but I still preferred speak-on connection with REL Blue Line cables.
Reading again the manual I noticed the there is the phase switch which I not tried until now. My experience with subs in home cinema was that the change of phase did not influence the playback very much.
But when I switched the phase from 0 to 180 degrees in my Carbon Special the presentation changed completely.
My main problem until now was the lack of saturation in 40-80 Hz range and too much of 20-40 Hz range which resulted with overhangs on bad recordings . My crossover is set at around 100 Hz ( 3 o"clock PM) and the volume at 9 o'clock. It is a special so called Natural RollOff crossover by REL.
Now after changing the phase the 40-80 Hz range was fuller, richer ,more saturated and 20-30 Hz less pronounced.
All together it resulted in better integration of REL's with Trios. I could even say that now that bass and midrange mell seaminglessly.
Then I realised that in the test of Avantgarde Duo speakers the Polish reviewer Andrzej Kisiel pointed out that the phase in Avantgardes is reversed , he tried standard polarisation and he found it better . In my system I did not hear the difference and kept the standard connection.
I suppose that Avantgarde still uses the same reveresed phase in its circuity and switching phase in my REL' s adjusted the phase between Trios and REL's as it should be.
The connection I still did not try is .1 Input in my REL's in which the signal does not pass through the crossover circuit. To be continued ...
Those settings and features on phase and cross-over points is always a learning process. It takes a few trials to get them right, and when it does, things fall into place nicely. This is a very important aspect in any given system and room setup. There's no one solution fits all type of scenario, and there's no best out there either. It is highly system dependent and pertains to your personal preferences.
At the end of the day, with some fine tuning and further tweaking, your system will reach a certain threshold. That's the point where you will realise it's full potential, simply because it will sound outstanding! That's also the point where you need to stop tweaking but many don't realise what exactly that potential is and the upgrade cycle continues...
BTW, Apogee's, fantastic panels to have, especially fully refurbed by specialists like Hank and Graz. Back in the day, I had the Apogee Diva's driven by CJ's top line amplifiers at the time, ART preamp and Premier 8A monoblocks. It was fantastic then but now with refurbed Apogee's, I could certainly tell the differences between workmanship and craftsmanship in both domains. I think the refurbed ones are superior, provided they are done properly!
Cheers Marslo, have a good one now, and keep us posted on your latest ventures.
Best, RJ
I finally had to give up with my sub because I either got deep bass or mid bass but not both. It seems a servo sub is not really compatible with horn bass. Horn bass sub works I know but it is too large for my space. Maybe with continuously variable phase I could get it as well but mine only has 0 and 180 degrees.As promised I want to share my recent experience with integration of my REL Carbon Special Subs with Trio LE 26.
The story starts in ... Liechtenstein where we have been together with my wife Barbara ( in Polish we call her Basia ) invited by - well known on WBF Christoph - and his wife , Monica.
For a long time I was very much interessted by Chrisoph setup ,espcially by Universum III horns which I knew only from audio shows . Christoph has also second impressive system with refurbished Apogees which I never listened too.
Because of the pandemic last 2 years we travel to France again by car and driving in Switzerland to St Bernardino we pass very close to Christoph place .
The end of July going back to Poland we had very nice dinner at Christophs, prepared by our charming hosts. And very interesting conversation too . Then we listened to both systems , mainly to Unis but also some time to Apogees which I liked very much .
Christoph has the room with beautiful view on Alpes , just behind the main system.
It is a fantastic sounding system on the warm side of the spectrum.
Talking is even more important than eating, drinking and listening
After installing Crossfire III back to my system I decided to follow Christoph's advice ( Christoph has also Cross III as a second amp ) and connected subs as shown in REL Manual, did some adjustment and listened to all my 3 sources - TT, sacd player and files.
It was a bit better than with A100 but I still preferred speak-on connection with REL Blue Line cables.
Reading again the manual I noticed the there is the phase switch which I not tried until now. My experience with subs in home cinema was that the change of phase did not influence the playback very much.
But when I switched the phase from 0 to 180 degrees in my Carbon Special the presentation changed completely.
My main problem until now was the lack of saturation in 40-80 Hz range and too much of 20-40 Hz range which resulted with overhangs on bad recordings . My crossover is set at around 100 Hz ( 3 o"clock PM) and the volume at 9 o'clock. It is a special so called Natural RollOff crossover by REL.
Now after changing the phase the 40-80 Hz range was fuller, richer ,more saturated and 20-30 Hz less pronounced.
All together it resulted in better integration of REL's with Trios. I could even say that now that bass and midrange mell seaminglessly.
Then I realised that in the test of Avantgarde Duo speakers the Polish reviewer Andrzej Kisiel pointed out that the phase in Avantgardes is reversed , he tried standard polarisation and he found it better . In my system I did not hear the difference and kept the standard connection.
I suppose that Avantgarde still uses the same reveresed phase in its circuity and switching phase in my REL' s adjusted the phase between Trios and REL's as it should be.
The connection I still did not try is .1 Input in my REL's in which the signal does not pass through the crossover circuit. To be continued ...
It was also my problem but now it seems that I have both ie deep and mid-bass.
It is a fresh experience and I am not sure how the system will further develop.
If finally I will find the integration with REL’s suboptimal I will change them for AG bass satelites with DSP.
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The Dynavox feet is really good especially considering price. Highly recommended.
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