Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[Soundelite]

It is not quite so simple as that! When I distributed Avantgarde horns we found the best and most cohesive sound was produced when the connections to the sub came from the high level output from your power amplifier. The subwoofer input at this point is high impedance. Some clients used 2 sets of speaker cables, one set for the Midrange and HF and the other direct to the subwoofer. If you go directly from the low level output from the preamp using the XLR connection, or an RCA to XLR converter if your preamplifier doesn't have a balanced output, you can encounter some timing issues as you are bypassing the amplifier that is driving the midrange and HF drivers.

Note: in the earlier G1 and G2 versions (pre XD) the high level input from your power amplifier (via the sub speaker terminals) is attenuated back to line level as the subwoofer input is high impedance at this point, so it has no power demands on the power amplifier in the subwoofer. I would assume this is still the case for the XD version.

This is more or less the same as what I said but I just put it in a simple way. Just try it yourself and you will know. You may find you have more cohesion when you connect the speaker wire to the mid and then the Hi/sub unit via jumpers. Maybe better time issue or maybe because all drivers are sharing the same amplifier, who knows. But you may also find a tighter and cleaner bass if you are connecting your pre amp to the XLR input of the bass unit. Make sure you have to turn the gain of your bass unit much higher when you are using this type of connection.

 

[G T Audio]

This is more or less the same as what I said but I just put it in a simple way. Just try it yourself and you will know. You may find you have more cohesion when you connect the speaker wire to the mid and then the Hi/sub unit via jumpers. Maybe better time issue or maybe because all drivers are sharing the same amplifier, who knows. But you may also find a tighter and cleaner bass if you are connecting your pre amp to the XLR input of the bass unit. Make sure you have to turn the gain of your bass unit much higher when you are using this type of connection.

The point I was making is that the high level sub input is high impedance as well as being transformer coupled, so this has negligible influence on the power draw in the driving power amplifier, which is different to what you said.

Sound wise: if in any doubt try both ways and see which one you prefer.

 

[Bergm@nn]

I'm still messing about with the various settings to tune the Duos into the room. Once I've got a decent stable sound then I'll have a go at connecting them up the 3 different ways and see what the audible differences might be.

 

[Tirebiter]

Over the past couple of months I have been giving consideration to moving on from my pair of Duo Grosso's. After about ten years of tinkering with all sorts of aspects including front end equipment (I still have an AG Model 5 0.5w integrated amp in storage somewhere), positioning etc I was starting to sense that maybe it was time to move on. I had read many comments concerning bass coherence, shouty colorations and because I was never quite satisfied with the sound, I thought maybe I should try something new and got interested in the Classic Audio Loudspeaker line. Dismay set in when I came to the realization that my Lamm ML2.1 mono's probably didn't have the horsepower to properly energize a pair of T3.4's. A complete overhaul just didn't make much sense to me.

That led me to more research and to this thread where I am learning more about how a room can be more of a problem than my speakers. A big shout out to @Jim Smith for his book listing tips for better sound that have all but quelled my desire to spend serious money for the time being. In particular, he stresses that none of the audio equipment should reside between the speakers. As a result I have gone from the the arraignment in the first photo to the second. It still is not an ideal setup and l have work to do but am very happy with the vast improvement thus far and believe moving the TT was far and away the best thing I could have done.

While I really would like to try the Classic speaker, I no longer feel the change is necessary so the Grosso's can now sleep without worry at night.

Brock

 

[G T Audio]

Over the past couple of months I have been giving consideration to moving on from my pair of Duo Grosso's. After about ten years of tinkering with all sorts of aspects including front end equipment (I still have an AG Model 5 0.5w integrated amp in storage somewhere), positioning etc I was starting to sense that maybe it was time to move on. I had read many comments concerning bass coherence, shouty colorations and because I was never quite satisfied with the sound, I thought maybe I should try something new and got interested in the Classic Audio Loudspeaker line. Dismay set in when I came to the realization that my Lamm ML2.1 mono's probably didn't have the horsepower to properly energize a pair of T3.4's. A complete overhaul just didn't make much sense to me.

Avantgarde horns are very sensitive to partnering equipment and cabling to achieve the best results. As you have found, removing the equipment from between the speakers makes a big difference, and not just with Avantgarde horns. Sound wise I found the best results came when using cables that use natural materials for insulation, as in no plastic involved in their construction. This will help alleviate any un-natural traits, as in reducing any hardness or grain in the vocal and midrange area. Bass wise, there will always be a coherence issue when you mix two different types of technology together, i.e. horn mid and HF with active bass in a sealed enclosure, which is why AG make their bass horn where the tech is the same across the whole frequency range. This comes at a price, both in cost and size, as a bass horn is significantly bigger in size. Having said that you can get some excellent results with AG's active bass systems. Maybe some bass traps in your room might help in that department. Also check for any flutter echo in the area behind and in front of the speakers, as well as at the listening position.

 

[Jim Smith]

Tirebiter - Another thing would be putting an acoustic panel in front of your tv when listening.

A good test to see if it will be worthwhile is to drape a quilt or a couple of towels over the screen.

 

[Jim Smith]

Back when I was the North American distributor - 1999-2005 - I supplied a few set-up tips to DUO owners that were universally appreciated,

Tirebiter - send me your e-mail address, and I will send a copy to you.

 

[Tirebiter]

Avantgarde horns are very sensitive to partnering equipment and cabling to achieve the best results. As you have found, removing the equipment from between the speakers makes a big difference, and not just with Avantgarde horns. Sound wise I found the best results came when using cables that use natural materials for insulation, as in no plastic involved in their construction. This will help alleviate any un-natural traits, as in reducing any hardness or grain in the vocal and midrange area. Bass wise, there will always be a coherence issue when you mix two different types of technology together, i.e. horn mid and HF with active bass in a sealed enclosure, which is why AG make their bass horn where the tech is the same across the whole frequency range. This comes at a price, both in cost and size, as a bass horn is significantly bigger in size. Having said that you can get some excellent results with AG's active bass systems. Maybe some bass traps in your room might help in that department. Also check for any flutter echo in the area behind and in front of the speakers, as well as at the listening position.

Thanks Graham, I have been considering the speaker cable route...any suggestions for wire sources using natural materials? And based on my crude efforts thus far trying to determine where bass standing waves reside (or disappear entirely) am also on a mission to delve into room treatments using more sophisticated methods outlined in this thread. As you can see, my room is not ideal from several standpoints: overall it is large but an incoherent "L" shape that is not readily apparent in the photos, the drop down ceiling behind the listening area and the substantial couch which is a WAF issue.

I have also found that the Grosso's are very sensitive to exacting placement symmetry and toe in. Many have commented on the need to give plenty of distance from the speaker plane but for what ever reason, far field geometry in my room just hasn't worked. I am currently at 8.2ft between tweeters and 10ft from tweeter to ears. But once they come into focus, they are magical. Either I am insensitive to the bass coherence being off or just don't know how to recognize it.

Thanks again for the comments...

Brock

 

[Bergm@nn]

any suggestions for wire sources using natural materials?

Duelund tinned copper multistrand wire in cotton and oil is a good one in my experience with Uno Finos and now Duo XDs.

 

[Tirebiter]

Tirebiter - Another thing would be putting an acoustic panel in front of your tv when listening.

A good test to see if it will be worthwhile is to drape a quilt or a couple of towels over the screen.

Thanks Jim, I suspected the TV was a big issue too and will try the blanket method to confirm. Your tips for moving the equipment were extremely helpful although I was stuck leaving the amps in place simply because I didn't have the room to place them behind the couch with the rest of the gear (hallway and doors to enter office). My turntable output quality improved significantly with the new placement. The small cabinet is a visual/WAF to hide network/AV cabling in the wall behind it...at least it is only about 12" deep. Great tips in your book, highly recommended. Appreciate any Duo set up info you can provide...check your PM.

Brock

 

[Tirebiter]

Duelund tinned copper multistrand wire in cotton and oil is a good one in my experience with Uno Finos and now Duo XDs.

Excellent, thank you!

 

[G T Audio]

Thanks Graham, I have been considering the speaker cable route...any suggestions for wire sources using natural materials? And based on my crude efforts thus far trying to determine where bass standing waves reside (or disappear entirely) am also on a mission to delve into room treatments using more sophisticated methods outlined in this thread. As you can see, my room is not ideal from several standpoints: overall it is large but an incoherent "L" shape that is not readily apparent in the photos, the drop down ceiling behind the listening area and the substantial couch which is a WAF issue.

I have also found that the Grosso's are very sensitive to exacting placement symmetry and toe in. Many have commented on the need to give plenty of distance from the speaker plane but for what ever reason, far field geometry in my room just hasn't worked. I am currently at 8.2ft between tweeters and 10ft from tweeter to ears. But once they come into focus, they are magical. Either I am insensitive to the bass coherence being off or just don't know how to recognize it.

Thanks again for the comments...

Brock

Duelund and Jupiter cables are excellent if you can make the cable up yourself. If you have experienced a "shouty" presentation before then I would avoid using silver. If you don't want to make the cables up yourself then I highly rate the cables from Less-Loss.

Position wise, I found the best results with Duos was when they crossed just behind the listening position. If you have them angled directly at you, as in a triangle, the sound stage can be somewhat compromised. With them crossed behind the listening position you should get good soundstage width and depth with good image placement. Room acoustics could also have an effect on this so try both positions.

ATB
Graham

 

[Jim Smith]

Position wise, I found the best results with Duos was when they crossed just behind the listening position.

ATB
Graham

Agreed.

 

[Hear Here]

It's great that both the former AG distributors from UK and US are contributing here. Thanks Jim and Graham - I''m sure we all appreciate your setting up expertise and experience.

Despite the advice to not place audio electronics (and presumably TVs etc) between the speakers, I'm not going that route for practical reasons. I think my Duo XDs are probably far enough apart that any disadvantage is outweighed by other advantages.

I'm pleased to hear the Duelund cable is generally considered as excellent with AGs. I'm about to buy new cables and I'm already using Duelund Dual DCA16GA tinned copper multistrand wire in cotton and oil as jumpers. Is this the recommended gauge for amp to speaker use, or is thicker better? I belive Jim recommends the 16 stuff.

It's a mystery why neither the UK distributor, nor the US one offer made-up Duelund cables. It becomes a DIY job which is particularly tricky with the materials used in the cable. Does anyone know of a UK outfit that can make up complete cables competently?



Thanks

Peter

 

[Jim Smith]

I recommend the 12 GA.

In North Ameica, Parts Connexion in Canada will build any cable that you order.

You might inquire of Duelund - in Germany - as to who sells & builds cables in Europe.

 

[Tirebiter]

It's great that both the former AG distributors from UK and US are contributing here. Thanks Jim and Graham - I''m sure we all appreciate your setting up expertise and experience.

Despite the advice to not place audio electronics (and presumably TVs etc) between the speakers, I'm not going that route for practical reasons. I think my Duo XDs are probably far enough apart that any disadvantage is outweighed by other advantages.

I'm pleased to hear the Duelund cable is generally considered as excellent with AGs. I'm about to buy new cables and I'm already using Duelund Dual DCA16GA tinned copper multistrand wire in cotton and oilas jumpers. Is this the recommended gauge for amp to speaker use, or is thicker better? I belive Jim recommends the 16 stuff.

It's a mystery why neither the UK distributor, nor the US one offer made-up Duelund cables. It becomes a DIY job which is particularly tricky with the materials used in the cable. Does anyone know of a UK outfit that can make up complete cables competently?



Thanks

Peter

I just finished building my own set using 16GA...I ordered materials before seeing Jim's post and will consider another pair in 12GA to run between amps and speakers.. The DIY job requires a bit of thought prior to starting because the woven fabric does not strip like most other plastic cables so traditional methods do not apply. I finally settled on a "split down the middle" approach using a sharp razor blade to deal with the outer cover material. If you are careful and proceed at a slow pace, it is relatively easy to run the blade between the two conductors and avoid cutting into the inner sheathing. I found that I could start at the cut end of the wire and move inward, cutting the outer sheath on both sides at once. Once the proper length is exposed it is easy to pull back each leg of the cover and trim. The wire covers can be removed using a normal wire stripper by rotating the stripper one turn around the wire. To keep the cloth from fraying, I used shrink tubing to protect the working ends.

I was impressed with the results of the new wires and jumpers...musical clarity is a description that comes to mind.

As to you comment concerning equipment between speakers, I have come to the conclusion that Jim's theory that the room has has a huge impact sound quality is spot on. My room is a bit of a nightmare by many standards and the reorganization helped me tremendously. Indeed, it sounds like your room is more forgiving....

 

[Hear Here]

I just finished building my own set using 16GA...I ordered materials before seeing Jim's post and will consider another pair in 12GA to run between amps and speakers.. The DIY job requires a bit of thought prior to starting because the woven fabric does not strip like most other plastic cables so traditional methods do not apply. I finally settled on a "split down the middle" approach using a sharp razor blade to deal with the outer cover material. If you are careful and proceed at a slow pace, it is relatively easy to run the blade between the two conductors and avoid cutting into the inner sheathing. I found that I could start at the cut end of the wire and move inward, cutting the outer sheath on both sides at once. Once the proper length is exposed it is easy to pull back each leg of the cover and trim. The wire covers can be removed using a normal wire stripper by rotating the stripper one turn around the wire. To keep the cloth from fraying, I used shrink tubing to protect the working ends.

I was impressed with the results of the new wires and jumpers...musical clarity is a description that comes to mind.

As to you comment concerning equipment between speakers, I have come to the conclusion that Jim's theory that the room has has a huge impact sound quality is spot on. My room is a bit of a nightmare by many standards and the reorganization helped me tremendously. Indeed, it sounds like your room is more forgiving....

Many thanks for the detailed description for adding terminals to Duelund cable. I'll follow up Jim's contact if they can send made-up cables to the UK - or I may follow your example and DIY them!

Regarding your comments about room layout, I wonder if your room is in fact more tricky than mine. You'll see from the sketch, there's no wall or skirting that cables could be run around between the speakers and an alternative location for the equipment rack - even if I could find an alternative location!

I've concluded it has to stay where it is and frankly I can't see any logical / audio reason why it could be OK for a TV to remain between the speakers, but not an equipment rack, specially as I normally have only one unit (the Class D all-in-one NAD M33) switched on.

Despite the initial eyebrow-raising choice of this amp for Avantgarde speakers, I chose it from the dozen amps of various classes after home trialling them over a period of more than a year. That was after I made a conscious decision to move away from SET tube amps. No regrets whatsoever, though I accept that marginally better sound could be squeezed from electronics costing several times the M33's price!

Peter

 

[G T Audio]

Many thanks for the detailed description for adding terminals to Duelund cable. I'll follow up Jim's contact if they can send made-up cables to the UK - or I may follow your example and DIY them!

Regarding your comments about room layout, I wonder if your room is in fact more tricky than mine. You'll see from the sketch, there's no wall or skirting that cables could be run around between the speakers and an alternative location for the equipment rack - even if I could find an alternative location!

I've concluded it has to stay where it is and frankly I can't see any logical / audio reason why it could be OK for a TV to remain between the speakers, but not an equipment rack, specially as I normally have only one unit (the Class D all-in-one NAD M33) switched on.

Despite the initial eyebrow-raising choice of this amp for Avantgarde speakers, I chose it from the dozen amps of various classes after home trialling them over a period of more than a year. That was after I made a conscious decision to move away from SET tube amps. No regrets whatsoever, though I accept that marginally better sound could be squeezed from electronics costing several times the M33's price!

Peter

If you are streaming music and running class D amplifiers into your Duos then there is no reason not to put a TV screen, or your electronics in-between your speakers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Real audiophiles have a TV screen between the speakers.
As they dont even wanna comprise just watching the news

 

[Adagio]

Real audiophiles have a TV screen between the speakers.
As they dont even wanna comprise just watching the news

That’s why you have another stereo in the TV room. I use a pair of Magnepan 1,6 qr and a Krell amp with my TV system.