Ballfinger M063 both 1/4 track and 1/2 Track playback

Mike Lavigne

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we have to keep our minds open. it's possible newer tech can better what we view as the performance standards. it's also possible that the best 'golden age' master recorders are clearly better.

at some point i hope there is some comparative feedback from the Ballfinger and a top level master recorders such as the ATR-102, Studer A-820 or A-80. if it's in that performance league but brand new, that would be a game changer.

equaling the broadcast level vintage decks would not really excite me considering the price of entry.
 
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microstrip

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Unfortunately I do not know who could adequately test the Ballfinger - besides the usual measurements, the most critical aspect that separates the excellent from the great machines is scrape-flutter and very few people have the equipment to measure it.

People can use better motors and the better control systems, but the tape path is the secret of the best machines. It is why I choose from those which were well documented in the past.
 

Skylab

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sunan

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Thanks Skylab for posting this. I am waiting till the owner posts more info. Anyway you can't order the Ballfinger till August. Hopefully more details will surface by then.
yjwu I am only looking at the play only deck. And you are right should wait till more information comes especially after that video surfaced.
You can't order one till August anyway to get a end of the year delivery.
 
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Tango

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Thanks Skylab for posting this. I am waiting till the owner posts more info. Anyway you can't order the Ballfinger till August. Hopefully more details will surface by then.
yjwu I am only looking at the play only deck. And you are right should wait till more information comes especially after that video surfaced.
You can't order one till August anyway to get a end of the year delivery.
Depend of the dealer's ability to move a product. Some dealers have ordered quite a few even when they havent a confirmed order from their customers yet. If you were in Thailand you could still get one from the first delivery which I believe is coming shortly. I was offered one.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

sunan

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Thanks for the info Tang, BTW curious to know how much does the H5 version sell there in Thailand?
 

Tango

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Thanks for the info Tang, BTW curious to know how much does the H5 version sell there in Thailand?
Tape machine is very expensive here. I was quoted $37,000 for a model I dont remember what with a direct drive. I dont think they have the H5 coming in so they couldnt tell me price. H5 is the full option with 1/4" and 1/2" right? Maarket over here only does 1/4". I bought my A820 at $36,500. Crazy price ... and stupid buyer o_O.

Tang
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Tape machine is very expensive here. I was quoted $37,000 for a model I dont remember what with a direct drive. I dont think they have the H5 coming in so they couldnt tell me price. H5 is the full option with 1/4" and 1/2" right? Maarket over here only does 1/4". I bought my A820 at $36,500. Crazy price ... and stupid buyer o_O.

Tang

can't say what the value of your A-820 might be in Asia right now, but i'd guess you could get 80% to 90% (maybe 100%) of that in the USA if it's in as prime condition at it appears to be. there is demand but no supply for better A-820's.

how many pieces of gear you own could you recover that percentage of original cost?

no stupid buyer i think. you bought quality and the marketplace has spoken.

and if you acquired 1/2" heads, guides and hubs and had it tuned for them, all of a sudden it would reign supreme in your system. 1/2" tapes are a bit more effort to acquire but reward accordingly.
 

dminches

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For $20-25k one can get a fully refusrbished deck with a wired out head to a Doshi tape preamp which is going to sound better than the Studers using the internal electronics. My Technics RS-1500 plus Doshi sounds better than my completely refurbished A810. I get my A812 back next week and my guess is that the Doshi will sound better than that too.
 

Mike Lavigne

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the debate on the significance of the transport in RTR decks is different than the debate on output electronics (or heads), which is different than the debate on 1/4" verses 1/2" or 15ips verses 30ips.

as is the debate on market value (supply and demand)......and logic verses sexyness/beauty/elegance.

or even the debate on where vinyl performance equates to tape in particular systems.

all different (if related) discussions.
 

Tango

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can't say what the value of your A-820 might be in Asia right now, but i'd guess you could get 80% to 90% (maybe 100%) of that in the USA if it's in as prime condition at it appears to be. there is demand but no supply for better A-820's.

Oh. I thought you can get one with excellent condition in US for around $15-$17,000.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

dminches

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the debate on the significance of the transport in RTR decks is different than the debate on output electronics (or heads), which is different than the debate on 1/4" verses 1/2" or 15ips verses 30ips.

as is the debate on market value (supply and demand)......and logic verses sexyness/beauty/elegance.

or even the debate on where vinyl performance equates to tape in particular systems.

all different (if related) discussions.

Agreed. My point was that one should be looking at the entire playback (and record) set up from end to end in order to compare it to a new production unit like the Ballfinger.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Oh. I thought you can get one with excellent condition in US for around $15-$17,000.

Kind regards,
Tang

unless you stumble across one somewhere, you are mid-$20k's and up for a decent A-820. really nice one's more.

i think a few do sell for under $20k of unknown quality, and then might be fine or need some attention.

what you paid not out of the range.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Agreed. My point was that one should be looking at the entire playback (and record) set up from end to end in order to compare it to a new production unit like the Ballfinger.

and we don't yet know where to place the Ballfinger into the performance rank. so it's premature to even guess without some feedback.
 

microstrip

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Oh. I thought you can get one with excellent condition in US for around $15-$17,000.

Kind regards,
Tang

There are several aspects we must consider when getting a tape machine.

1. Mechanical performance and head quality.
2. Are you going to use it just for playback? Which formats?
3. Do you consider a separate head amp?
4. Size and weigh - many people do not want a 100 kg monster on wheels in their rooms.
5. Medium/long term availability of service and spare parts, as well as its cost.
6. Looks and empathy :)
7. Proof of performance.
8. Cost of machine
 
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astrotoy

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I admire Ballfinger's courage in entering the R2R manufacturing arena. I read on another forum that they are back ordered through the end of 2019, so there appears to be significant demand, although one other piece of information was that they were having difficulty hiring enough workers, so there may be some supply constraint also. So hopefully there will be a reasonable number of machines out in the field within a few months and we will start to get some significant feedback.

At this point, their main competition are refurbished/remanufactured machines. If one wants one that has some imprimatur beyond a local repair person, then the price points are similar to those of Ballfinger for most machines. I'm thinking of Greg Beron UHA, Jeff Jacobs, Mara, ATR Services, Arian Jansen Sonorus, even Fred Thal ATAE (although he has much higher price points). There are probably a few that I have missed that others can add.

There are two main parts of the R2R issue, the mechanical and the electronic. Most of the attention has been on the weaknesses in the electronics, mainly playback, of older machines and starting back more than a decade ago, I think with Bottlehead, there have been a number of small companies that sell electronics units that bypass the internal electronics of these machines. Some refurbishers/remanufacturers have also developed their own replacement electronics for their machines, like Greg Beron. ATR Services, did, but no longer offers its replacement electronics package.

If the electronics of the Ballfinger ends up to equal the top alternative electronics (I'm thinking Nick Doshi in particular) and their mechanics approach the pro machines like ATR-102 or Studer A820 or A80 then their price points will be very attractive to many audiophiles, given their more compact footprint and attractive cosmetics. If their total package of mechanical and electronics is not at the level of Greg Beron's UHA machines with the Beron electronics, then I think they will have a difficult time in the long term.

We, of course, had our hopes raised and then dashed when Horch House announced their new machines a couple of years ago at a price point which would bring high end tape (15ips 2 track 1/4" tape) to a much larger audience, and then having the project fail. Another such enterprise has begun in the US with Central Dogma Magnetics. They are still in the early stages of their company, but their energy is impressive. They are looking at price points even lower than Horch House. Time will tell whether they can do it.

https://cdmagnetics.com/

Of course, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the cost and availability of high end tapes to play. But that subject is for another thread and another day.

Larry
 
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Ron Resnick

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Does anyone understand why Ballfinger appears to be offering both a belt drive transport as well as a direct drive transport? Can you tell from the website which design Ballfinger thinks is better?
 

Tango

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Does anyone understand why Ballfinger appears to be offering both a belt drive transport as well as a direct drive transport? Can you tell from the website which design Ballfinger thinks is better?
It is about $10,000 different. Some education about the two tape drive would be appreciated.

kind regards,
Tang
 

Mike Lavigne

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It is about $10,000 different. Some education about the two tape drive would be appreciated.

kind regards,
Tang

belt drive less costly.....but they don't really say one is better. belts maybe make it cheaper to change speeds. appropriate quality dual speed direct drive motors are maybe more costly? i'm guessing about that. and possibly over time the direct drive is less prone to needing adjustment. another guess.

1548168127511.png
 
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microstrip

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belt drive less costly.....but they don't really say one is better. belts maybe make it cheaper to change speeds. appropriate quality dual speed direct drive motors are maybe more costly? i'm guessing about that. and possibly over time the direct drive is less prone to needing adjustment. another guess.

View attachment 47796

IMHO in part intelligent marketing. They know that the big Studers are direct drive type using large synchronous motors operated in a non-synchronous mode and want to tell us that their belt driven brushless DC motor solution sounds as good as the great classical designs of the past ...
 

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