Best alternative: Preamp with built in DAC chip or Modern DAC

[amirm]

Yes but all digital volume controls aren't implemented the same. Same goes with analog.

Did you just lecture the King of Audio on ABCs of these boxes???

That would never happen with my amps even if a preamp/DAC did blow up because the protection circuity would kick in instantly.

Nothing works instantly. It may be instant by human reaction time but it won't be instant by electronics time.

 

[Blizzard]

Did you just lecture the King of Audio on ABCs of these boxes???


Nothing works instantly. It may be instant by human reaction time but it won't be instant by electronics time.

No I'm just trying to figure out how the digital volume control is implemented in the Berkley DAC?

I've shorted some electronics connected to them before already, and the protection circuitry kicked it like a lightning bolt. It was just a tiny little pop and the red protection circuit light came on. Reset after a power cycle. No speaker damage at all.

 

[amirm]

No I'm just trying to figure out how the digital volume control is implemented in the Berkley DAC?

As far as I know it is in the DSP that does the upsampling/filtering. When I talked to Michael on the trade off between it and analog volume control he said that the digital noise floor was well below any analog control.

I've shorted some electronics connected to them before already, and the protection circuitry kicked it like a lightning bolt. It was just a tiny little pop and the red protection circuit light came on. Reset after a power cycle. No speaker damage at all.

They work many times but not always. I was not there when the speaker blew but I recall now that they said something about extreme static. So maybe it was not pure DC.

 

[PeterA]

Great point. Why wouldn't you? Ask your favourite manufacturer that question. Because in my mind that's a no brainer.

You had written that all traditional preamps add color. Your incredible statement that even MadFloyd's Pass XS Pre adds "fairy dust" is pretty telling. That seemed to be quite an absolute position. Now you seem to be open to my suggestion that inserting quad DSD capability into a traditional preamp using high quality parts, build to a high standard and employing a superior volume control and output stage would be "a no brainer".

I think that my favorite manufacturer will decide what it wants to design and produce. It seems that perhaps the reference quality of the preamp function in these DACs is not so absolute, after all, and the critical lack of being able to serve the needs of many audiophiles who have turntables seems significant.

 

[bonzo75]

I said voltage not impedance.

He wouldn't know the difference

 

[Purite Audio]

I think the Mola Mola pre amp/ dac is a serious component if your looking for this type of integration.

Hopeully the new Mola-Mola dac will be here soon, the Mola,'Makua ' preamp is transparent, the inbuilt phonos superb too.
Keith.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You had written that all traditional preamps add color.

In the absolute audiophile world, where "everything matters," this would be the no brainer. Regardless of the price of the pre, it contains wires, jacks, a volume control...parts. Now, whether or not they add anything audible is another question.

Your incredible statement that even MadFloyd's Pass XS Pre adds "fairy dust" is pretty telling.

A smarmy choice of words, perhaps. Would you have preferred "noise and distortion?"

That seemed to be quite an absolute position.

In a world in which people hear wire, what other kind of position can there be?

Tim

 

[spazmatron]

Hopeully the new Mola-Mola dac will be here soon, the Mola,'Makua ' preamp is transparent, the inbuilt phonos superb too.
Keith.

Nice plug dad!

 

[Purite Audio]

Nice plug dad!

Stay away from those' audiophile ' fuses son, no good will come of it!
Vb Keith ( your father)

 

[Blizzard]

You had written that all traditional preamps add color. Your incredible statement that even MadFloyd's Pass XS Pre adds "fairy dust" is pretty telling. That seemed to be quite an absolute position. Now you seem to be open to my suggestion that inserting quad DSD capability into a traditional preamp using high quality parts, build to a high standard and employing a superior volume control and output stage would be "a no brainer".

I think that my favorite manufacturer will decide what it wants to design and produce. It seems that perhaps the reference quality of the preamp function in these DACs is not so absolute, after all, and the critical lack of being able to serve the needs of many audiophiles who have turntables seems significant.

Most DAC's are DAC's inserted into preamps. They just don't have analog inputs. What do you suppose is different?

It's no secret that Pass gear is voiced for warmth. If the warmth wasn't there in the original recording, but there after the pass gear, then it came from the gear, not the recording.

What do you suppose this gain stage from the Pass XS does different than the gain stage in a good DAC? There's only about $100 worth of parts on that board tops. But much more than the $10 worth of parts in most DAC output stages I agree.



Here's the 8 channel DAC board of the Merging Hapi. The black boxes on the right of the ESS DAC chip are 8 channels of gain stages, vs the 1 channel of the Pass on the Pass board. In the 2 channel version of the NADAC, it will look like that but only 2 gain stages instead of 8. This gain stage is designed for transparency:



Here we have the 2 channel gain stage on the $799 Gustard X20 DAC. Much more elaborate like the Pass gain stage. And like the Pass gain stage, designed for warmth:

 

[Sauerball]

I've been using a SOtM sDP-1000 for the last couple of years. Very solid DAC with analog pre in the same box. Getting the upgrade itch, thinking NADAC, would love to be able to run it without a separate pre. Would need to have confidence, in my own opinion, that it would sound as good or better without a pre.

 

[Blizzard]

I've been using a SOtM sDP-1000 for the last couple of years. Very solid DAC with analog pre in the same box. Getting the upgrade itch, thinking NADAC, would love to be able to run it without a separate pre. Would need to have confidence, in my own opinion, that it would sound as good or better without a pre.

All depends on your definition of "sounding good" If you want to add warmth, you can use always use digital filters in HQplayer. They are extremely effective at this.

Unless your entire collection is DSD, HQplayer is a must with Merging products. Or with any DSD compatible SDM chipped DAC for that matter. Especially if it uses the Sabre 9008 or 9018.

 

[Sauerball]

All depends on your definition of "sounding good"

Indeed, which is why I need to start listening.

 

[MadFloyd]

All depends on your definition of "sounding good" If you want to add warmth, you can use always use digital filters in HQplayer. They are extremely effective at this.

Which digital filter(s) do you think add warmth, Mike?

 

[Blizzard]

Which digital filter(s) do you think add warmth, Mike?

I've had it on the same settings for so long now that I can't remember exactly. But I do remember that if DirectSDM is unchecked in DSF DSDiff, it enables extra filters that add additional warmth. You will have to play around. Takes a while to achieve the exact balance that suits your tastes. then again, every recording is different.

What they are working on is the ability to embed the filter settings into the tagging of each track or album. This way the filters will automatically change with each track or album. This way you can "remaster" each one of your tracks or albums to your personal tastes! Much easier than switching systems for each genre of music!

What you should try is Roon direct to the DAC with HQplayer off, and the Pass labs pre in the chain, vs NADAC direct to amps with HQplayer. This will be a real eye opener as most people that use high end preamps on here with their DAC's, turn their noses up at hqplayer.

Use the filters in HQplayer to try to achieve the same level of warmth as the pass pre adds going Roon direct with no HQplayer. Then compare with Roon direct with the Pass. Let us know your preferred combination with Redbook.

 

[amirm]

What do you suppose this gain stage from the Pass XS does different than the gain stage in a good DAC? There's only about $100 worth of parts on that board tops. But much more than the $10 worth of parts in most DAC output stages I agree.

View attachment 25412

That's really a small power amp. The Toshiba output FETs are rated each at 25 watts. As is usually the case, high-end amplification is over-designed as to not ever have a performance hole no matter how you use it. This makes their performance system independent. It is not a statement of necessity per-se.

 

[Blizzard]

That's really a small power amp. The Toshiba output FETs are rated each at 25 watts. As is usually the case, high-end amplification is over-designed as to not ever have a performance hole no matter how you use it. This makes their performance system independent. It is not a statement of necessity per-se.

Yes it's much more over built than the gain stage in the Merging products thats for sure. I agree with doing this and I do the same in my products. My pre gain stage in my system can actually drive my speakers to decent levels without even any amps!. Likely same with the Pass.

 

[spazmatron]

Yes it's much more over built than the gain stage in the Merging products thats for sure. I agree with doing this and I do the same in my products. My pre gain stage in my system can actually drive my speakers to decent levels without even any amps!. Likely same with the Pass.

My pre can too.. I loved my krell 25 sc cdp, don't know the technical details of the output.

 

[Blizzard]

My pre can too.. I loved my krell 25 sc cdp, don't know the technical details of the output.

What's the pre you're using now?

 

[spazmatron]

What's the pre you're using now?

Modified Belles two box.