Yep, and I sometimes get the looks for having heavily shielded anything I can in my analog rig, starting with the arm, to the interconnecting cable, all the way to the phono preamp and its umbilical.
Best phono stage?
- Thread starter awsmone
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Yep, and I sometimes get the looks for having heavily shielded anything I can in my analog rig, starting with the arm, to the interconnecting cable, all the way to the phono preamp and its umbilical.
BTW, interesting comments about phono XLR - I have XLR-out and the only XLR-in phono I could find were my ex Ayre and the Moon/Simaudio (a truly noiseless phono, if it only sounded as good)
Hi Gian
Great photo, love those tiny capacitors, will almost be battery with those for a phono stage
But isn’t the principle of the Io/Aesthetix that it’s straight into the tube, and earlier audio research reference tubes phonos ( not current one which use FET)
We were the first to provide a balanced input for a phono cartridge way back in 1989. That was in our MP-1, which was the first fully differential balanced line preamp made. So there is at least one more you can add to your list, although by now I am sure there are others.
FWIW, we use a direct-coupled input for the phono as well, and further, the output of our MP-1 and MP-3 is also direct-coupled.
Hi ack. Question? Have you ever heard an FM Acoustics 123 or 223 phono pre-amp with the de-clicker circuit? What was the rest of the system. What did you hear?
I’ve heard the FM Acoustics 223 with FM Acoustics 266 pre-amp and 100 series amps or FM 411 amp played through Zellaton Statement at AudioArts, NYC on multiple occasions. The turntable was a Brinkman top of the line table with the Fuuga moving coil cartridge. I’m not sure I fully understand the meaning of “unstable” phono pre-amps as Atmosphere describes above but I can tell you what I experienced with FM Acoustics. The FM Acoustics 223 phono pre-amp is among the best if not the best I’ve ever heard. The FM 223 without the de-clicker engaged is the most natural sounding top to bottom, three dimensional, phono stage I’ve ever heard. We listened to numerous LPs; original 1950s/1960s vinyl as well as Acoustic Sounds remaster/re-issues and other recent re-issues. Not once did I ever feel that surface noise was being amplified over the musical signal (dis-proportionately) with de-clicker circuits dis-engaged. Gideon has an original Peggy Lee Dream Street LP that’s in really good shape. Mono recording. Peggy Lee’s voice thru the all FM/Zellaton system is so real it’s scary. The de-clicker circuits really shines with older LPs that have surface noise, pops, scratches, etc. Example: Gideon played an original Nina Simone LP - Little Girl Blue. It’s rough; many pops, clicks, throughout. We listened to a few cuts then Gideon engaged the de-clicker circuit of the FM223 and re-played the same cuts. The pops and clicks were attenuated to a level so low they were nearly unnoticeable; not totally eliminated but unnoticeable. BUT - the rest of the musical charachter of the LP was not degraded in any way. Amazing. Head scratching, shake your head, amazing. I own a CH Precision P1/X1 in an all CH Precision system. The P1 is a phenominal phono stage and is my point of reference. The FM Acoustics 223 in an all FM system with the de-clicker circuitry makes it the best phono pre-amp I’ve ever heard especially if you own older, original recordings with pops and clicks. That’s my experience with the FM product.
I LOVE this photo for some reason... makes my heart swell.
Ah, the CH Precision - a formidable design, if only Ian would ever invite me to his lair to listen to it!
Ralph is not the only one; Genesis is another, so is Lyra, and your favorite FM Acoustics, among many others - and thank God some serious manufacturers understand the underlying problems.
Simply put again, the cartridge/phono cable/arm cable/phono preamp is a circuit which will exhibit a resonant peak, which can be quite high in magnitude, and though it is typically in the low MHz, it -may- affect the audio band, depending on the phono stage's design, and the resistor aims to tame that peak, at the potential expense on sonics - see that other thread I linked to ("Cartridge loading is a misnomer") for all the details. The best reference in existence is the one from Hagerman we linked to http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html earlier
A cartridge's electrical response is simulated by a voltage source in series with an inductance (Lc) and resistance (Rc). The load capacitance of the interconnect and preamp are lumped together (Ca). Load resistance of preamp is Ra.
The larger the inductance, or larger the capacitance, the lower the resonant frequency will be. Indeed, it can easily show up in the audio band, even under common conditions. The following calculator can be used to determine the resonance of your system.
I am a big fan of FM Acoustics, but... a) oh, the price; b) I hate the buttons they use - still too much 1980s
LOL! Yes, I would actually shield those transformers inside the P1! Safe travels!
Thanks for the clarification and your explanation. I understand now from the diagram you provided. FM Acoustics also STRONGLY recommends that one use their phono cable with their phono preamps likely because of the issue you raise above. The price. Yes, there is that.
Note about CH Precision P1. They implemented current source inputs on the MC1 and MC2 pictured above so loading not required as long as the MC you are using has certain required characteristics. If you use MM3, voltage source amplification, then the diagram you provided represents this input and they have implemented a rather unique feature to determine the correct loading. CH Precision provides a test record with each P1 and a set-up wizard in the P1. You put the P1 into this "wizard mode" from the front panel and play the test record. The wizard takes into account the cartridge and cables used and determines the optimal loading and gain. Takes a few minutes to complete. You can override but I've not seen the problem solved this way. Also, if you use MC1 or MC2, the wizard will recommend the optimal gain for your cartridge. Very slick.
In case it is not clear from my prior posts, if your phono preamp is stable (and if you take reasonable care of your LPs) there should be no need for a declicker. People often comment when coming to my home that the LPs seem as silent as the CDs.
When an LP is recorded, the lacquer is very quiet and without any ticks or pops at all (I operate an LP mastering operation so I'm taking from experience). When the lacquer is shipped to the pressing plant, the plant produces a test pressing, which is then shipped to the producer to sign off on. One of the reasons is that a tick or pop might show up in the pressing process so the test is auditioned to insure that such has no occurred. If a producer is sloppy, a defect like a tick or pop might be allowed but it is the exception rather than the norm. The result is that when you buy an LP it is free of ticks and pops, but if your phono section is unstable you will not be able to enjoy or even know this fact.
The above statements suggest to me that the FM Acoustics phono equalizer isn't stable since a declicker really isn't needed. The latter quote seems to underline the stability issue- if a specific cable is needed, that sounds to me like a problem.
Regarding the P1, I'd like madfloyd to demonstrate this to me with his similar-to-mine A95, because from the little I have seen, the loadings the wizard selects tend to be around 100ohms, which, sonically, is not ideal.
I have P1 with one X1 with 2 board,one for P1 and one for L1.
My project for 2018 is develop P1,doing it mono with 2 X1,total 4 stack
To do mono is very simple,you can buy a second P1 without the 2 input board and then you take out the left ,for example,input board and put in second P1 and connect the 2 P1 mono with one ethernet cable,so one is master and second is slave.
The cost of P1 without the 2 input board is around 70/72% of the original P1
My project for 2018 is develop P1,doing it mono with 2 X1,total 4 stack
To do mono is very simple,you can buy a second P1 without the 2 input board and then you take out the left ,for example,input board and put in second P1 and connect the 2 P1 mono with one ethernet cable,so one is master and second is slave.
The cost of P1 without the 2 input board is around 70/72% of the original P1
Thanks. Maybe I was not clear. The majority of listening that I did with the FM Acoustics 223 was with the de-click/de-crackle circuits disabled. We listened to MANY records, new and old, in good shape, well cared for and NO de-crackle/de-click was necessary as you point out. The excellent Analogue Productions, Dean Martin, Dreamin with Dean, sounded so real! Noise floor was so low that his voice just seemed to appear in the room. Ditto for the mono Peggy Lee, “Dream Street”. Remarkable sounding recording from the 50s and what a voice. However, we also listened to old albums like the Nina Simone, Little Girl Blue, mono, that had not been well cared for over the years. Much surface noise, a few light scratches, were distracting. The de-click/de-crackle circuit attenuated all of this and made the record sound great. Truly remarkable.
