Best phono stage?

[Holmz]

I hope we're not going to get into that EQ curve thing again. The opening post at that link talks about using the Argo curve, sounding better then the RIAA curve. The Argo curve is for 78s. There is no way it is appropriate for LPs. IMO/IME that calls into question the validity of the poster's comments.

I can just about hear the line out of the movie…

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Actually, there are settings for this, for old equalization curves, such as Columbia and the corresponding LP. But if you have problems with your bass in the room, for example, you can change the rolloff. I think it's smart to just try it out before you do expensive room tuning.
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I see that this is the Soulnote E-2 phono equalizer. It has 144 e.q. settings for pre-RIAA curves. Does it have 78 rpm curves possible, particularly from the electrical era (post-1925)? I suppose it could also help acoustical recordings (pre-1925).
Is this Soulnote superior sonically to the EAR 324? If need be, I also have an Zesto Allesso SUT. The Soulnote would permit me to connect both LP and 78 to the Westminster Labs Quest 2 preamp via XLRs as I do now only for the EAR 324. The Marantz has wonky/cheap RCA connectors (should be upgraded).

I currently use the old Marantz 7C for my 78s. With it's 78 rpm e.q. switch, tone controls and dual frequency high and low filters, it works well (but I really should add the Sugarcube for noise). It's not high end as my LP and CD system but can have tremendous dynamic punch and touch of the performers (they are direct disc recordings despite all their faults).

 

[DasguteOhr]

I see that this is the Soulnote E-2 phono equalizer. It has 144 e.q. settings for pre-RIAA curves. Does it have 78 rpm curves possible, particularly from the electrical era (post-1925)? I suppose it could also help acoustical recordings (pre-1925).

Of course, you can do all curves with this.

Is this Soulnote superior sonically to the EAR 324? If need be, I also have an Zesto Allesso SUT. The Soulnote would permit me to connect both LP and 78 to the Westminster Labs Quest 2 preamp via XLRs as I do now only for the EAR 324. The Marantz has wonky/cheap RCA connectors (should be upgraded).

I can't comment on that, as I don't know the device personally, but I've always liked Tim de Parvacini's devices. I like the sound of the E2 Phono i expect it to be on the same level as the Klyne 7px or Gryphon Orestes. Nothing bothers me or stands out negatively. What bothers me is the rattling of the lid and cabinet, but that's the company philosophy. Tightly fitting parts are meant to vibrate and affect the sound.

I currently use the old Marantz 7C for my 78s. With it's 78 rpm e.q. switch, tone controls and dual frequency high and low filters, it works well (but I really should add the Sugarcube for noise). It's not high end as my LP and CD system but can have tremendous dynamic punch and touch of the performers (they are direct disc recordings despite all their faults).

Yes, unfortunately, good tone controls has gone out of fashion these days. Often, you miss it when you have beautiful music but a bad recording. A little tweaking, and you're happy again.
When you don't need it, simply switch it out of the signal path It could all be so simple:
buy a new cartridge and hope it improves the sound of the recording is of course better..new beautiful world.

 

[Kcin]

The absence of tone controls is highly overrated.

Perhaps not the best, but two of my favourite phonos are the Marantz Consolettes and Model 7. I could live with either for ever if I had to give every other preamp up.

They allow for adjustment to record equalization and tone controls. I'll never use the EQ in the way intended- I just don't listen to pre RIAA records- but they may offer some flavour to subjectively improve things.

BTW if anyone here knows how to change the EQ for tape on either of these units to IEC from NAB with simple circuit modifications let me know--I'd like to try that

 

[Dave777tx]

The DS audio master does have very high detail with lack of emotion, sounds like great digital rather than analog. It will be interesting to listen to it with a low watt valve system

I am going to disagree, it is not the perfect cartridges and some set ups can be more musical but I would say that with the right set up it os very musical and zero digital, but just my opinion as an owner

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I am going to disagree, it is not the perfect cartridges and some set ups can be more musical but I would say that with the right set up it os very musical and zero digital, but just my opinion as an owner

That's why I added the other equipment as I typically find high end older Wilson speakers to be difficult to listen to at length (the worst was the original WAMM I heard which was akin to hearing 5 independent speakers shouting at me with all Audio Research top line tube gear-I digress). I've experienced the DS cartridges at shows but those were unfair setups and I really don't know how great they sound in a great, controlled listening room.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

The absence of tone controls is highly overrated.

Perhaps not the best, but two of my favourite phonos are the Marantz Consolettes and Model 7. I could live with either for ever if I had to give every other preamp up.

They allow for adjustment to record equalization and tone controls. I'll never use the EQ in the way intended- I just don't listen to pre RIAA records- but they may offer some flavour to subjectively improve things.

BTW if anyone here knows how to change the EQ for tape on either of these units to IEC from NAB with simple circuit modifications let me know--I'd like to try that

I read up on the Consolettes plus Model 6 (as well as the Model 1). Fascinating! My Marantz 7 is more like a toy version. I would only require one unit as I only listen to mono 78s (and whatever acoustic era speeds adjusted through the VPI electronic speed control box). Thanks for lesson.
I do have pre-RIAA mono LPs as well but hit the mono switch and am too lazy to adjust LP e.q.

 

[Dave777tx]

That's why I added the other equipment as I typically find high end older Wilson speakers to be difficult to listen to at length (the worst was the original WAMM I heard which was akin to hearing 5 independent speakers shouting at me with all Audio Research top line tube gear-I digress). I've experienced the DS cartridges at shows but those were unfair setups and I really don't know how great they sound in a great, controlled listening room.

Yes, exactly as you go up the DS ladder it gets less forgiving and at shows it happened to me too that it did not sound as good as it could. But it’s a great option, I am not sure it’s as good as P10 or others super high end phonos but I’d love to figure it out
What is your favorite phono system?

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Yes, exactly as you go up the DS ladder it gets less forgiving and at shows it happened to me too that it did not sound as good as it could. But it’s a great option, I am not sure it’s as good as P10 or others super high end phonos but I’d love to figure it out
What is your favorite phono system?

Well, it was the Kronos Pro (or slightly older version) in $1+ million system of VAC and Von Schweikert Ultra 11s. It reproduced my late 1950s and early 1960s, percussion and jazz LPs wherein we thought the musicians were performing live in front of us. Uncanny. I think It featured the $15K Airtight cartridge. I am contemplating upgrading my analog section starting with a turntable. However, my choice sonically would be a Kronos, it is very elaborate and probably requires too much maintenance for me. An alternative is the Ars Machinae but it may not have the gravitas (full bloom sound) that I desire. I've had VPI turntables with SME IV highly modified arms for over four decades. I like the sound and virtually no maintenance although the TNT VI rests on a Townshend Seismic Sink because it has terrible (non-isolating) footers.

 

[Dave777tx]

Well, it was the Kronos Pro (or slightly older version) in $1+ million system of VAC and Von Schweikert Ultra 11s. It reproduced my late 1950s and early 1960s, percussion and jazz LPs wherein we thought the musicians were performing live in front of us. Uncanny. I think It featured the $15K Airtight cartridge. I am contemplating upgrading my analog section starting with a turntable. However, my choice sonically would be a Kronos, it is very elaborate and probably requires too much maintenance for me. An alternative is the Ars Machinae but it may not have the gravitas (full bloom sound) that I desire. I've had VPI turntables with SME IV highly modified arms for over four decades. I like the sound and virtually no maintenance although the TNT VI rests on a Townshend Seismic Sink because it has terrible (non-isolating) footers.

The new Kronos is out of this world but you are right it’s a lot of maintenance and also requieres cartridge matching as most tube phonos. I am debating if I should get the p10. I own the Esoteric P1 and as you said way less demanding and I can put any cartridge I want, still don’t think I can get the magic of Kronos. VAC and Ultra 11 is great match. Anything is a good match with VS to be honest. What Turntable are you considering to upgrade the VPI?

 

[SeagoatLeo]

The new Kronos is out of this world but you are right it’s a lot of maintenance and also requieres cartridge matching as most tube phonos. I am debating if I should get the p10. I own the Esoteric P1 and as you said way less demanding and I can put any cartridge I want, still don’t think I can get the magic of Kronos. VAC and Ultra 11 is great match. Anything is a good match with VS to be honest. What Turntable are you considering to upgrade the VPI?

I was thinking about the Ars Machinae which I may audition in my home. If it lives up to my want for a full sound rather than typical high resolution, open soundstage but relatively thinner sound, I will buy it. That's probably the reason I would not own an Ortofon cartridge (rising high end except Bronze which is dull and Winfield which is best). I would possibly have a Red or Blue Hana if I switched from Dynavector.

 

[gleeds]

I was thinking about the Ars Machinae which I may audition in my home. If it lives up to my want for a full sound rather than typical high resolution, open soundstage but relatively thinner sound, I will buy it. That's probably the reason I would not own an Ortofon cartridge (rising high end except Bronze which is dull and Winfield which is best). I would possibly have a Red or Blue Hana if I switched from Dynavector.

Thanks, Seagoat! Nothing is wrong with the venerable Kronos, in all its versions.

I look forward to my visit with the Ars Machine M1 arm and table with the isolation base. It is a model of simplicity in engineering and design. While not fashioned after the Simon York of yesteryear, the M1's precision and simplicity of execution were my initial inspiration to get involved with its development.

A second armboard can be 3D printed at a reasonable cost if you want to keep your SME 4 in position two. Perhaps consider the DS Audio or a mono cart, which can easily be a plug-in for your Westminster Quest pre-amp. route. I have ordered a Hana Red for my daily driver, so we can have a thorough listen compared to your vintage topline VPI/SME/Dynavector rig.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The absence of tone controls is highly overrated.

Perhaps not the best, but two of my favourite phonos are the Marantz Consolettes and Model 7. I could live with either for ever if I had to give every other preamp up.

They allow for adjustment to record equalization and tone controls. I'll never use the EQ in the way intended- I just don't listen to pre RIAA records- but they may offer some flavour to subjectively improve things.

BTW if anyone here knows how to change the EQ for tape on either of these units to IEC from NAB with simple circuit modifications let me know--I'd like to try that

Beautiful Marantz gear, congrats
but if you set the tone controls correctly, like with Sansui, it's fantastic. Most poor recordings lack body in the lower midrange (250 Hz, 500 Hz) or the vocals have too much sibilance (2.5 kHz or 5 kHz). This is the main reason something sounds discordant. You like the music, but you wish they'd put more effort into the recording.

This usually solves the problems; it works, because this people knew where to put the lever 60 years ago.

 

[Balle Clorin]

IMO. Nagra doesn’t pay for reviews like CH does, so you won’t see Fremer or others publish reviews.

So it is common custom for the manufacturers to pay the reviewers for a review? That is even worse than I thought..I have understood that buying ads in a magazine following a review is a secret practice, but paying directly I did not know about.

 

[andromedaaudio]

So it is common custom for the manufacturers to pay the reviewers for a review? That is even worse than I thought..

How do you think magazines can keep existing ...... thin air/ gifts / government subsidies ????
Reviews are often accompanied by advertising so its not directly the review that is being paid for.

To make a magazine costs money , reviewers also invest time / effort

 

[Dave777tx]

How do you think magazines can keep existing ...... thin air/ gifts / government subsidies ????
Reviews are often accompanied by advertising so its not directly the review that is being paid for.

To make a magazine costs money , reviewers also invest time / effort

I know it’s not optimal but magazines and reviewers needs to make a living. Usually you pay them to get an opinion and magazines usually it’s more about advertising so not always is straight forward. Usually reviewers deny when they are not a believers of a product to avoid writing something negative. There are some reviewers that are more objective than others, I do believe Fremer and Jay Audio Lab are the most objective without trashing products but it is also important to consider that they also have personal preferences and that maybe not be yours.
Complex but I do think reviewers are very helpful if you use them wisely.

 

[andromedaaudio]

All my " Munchen " show reports were / are also free of charge

I thought of introducing the concept of getting 5 US dollars for a good review in Munchen , with 500 plus rooms or so this adds up real quick .

So yeah i understand the potential incentive your aiming at lol

 

[Atmasphere]

agra doesn’t pay for reviews like CH does, so you won’t see Fremer or others publish reviews.

Fremer does not get paid by manufacturers, at least he never asked us for any such thing. In fact no magazine we've ever dealt with in the last 40 years has.

I currently use the old Marantz 7C for my 78s. With it's 78 rpm e.q. switch, tone controls and dual frequency high and low filters, it works well (but I really should add the Sugarcube for noise).

78s have a different groove width (as you probably already know); if you use an LP stylus it will be a lot noisier.

 

[jcarr]

So it is common custom for the manufacturers to pay the reviewers for a review? That is even worse than I thought..I have understood that buying ads in a magazine following a review is a secret practice, but paying directly I did not know about.

I have had numerous reviews published in the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Norway etc., and in none of these cases was there any exchange of money, nor such a request. True, the publication may sometimes suggest that placing advertising would be appreciated, but I've not heard of this being made a necessary condition for a review.

Some cultures do require money for a review, but this does not assure a positive review.
Rather, you are paying the reviewer for his or her professional judgement, the same way that you would pay a doctor or lawyer for their time, regardless of whether the outcome is favorable or not.

In any case, as long as a reviewer and/or publication values their reputation, it makes no sense for them to give good reviews to awful-sounding products.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Fremer does not get paid by manufacturers, at least he never asked us for any such thing. In fact no magazine we've ever dealt with in the last 40 years has.

78s have a different groove width (as you probably already know); if you use an LP stylus it will be a lot noisier.

Please, I have 61,100 LPs, CDs, "78s" and R2R tapes. I have a dedicated VPI 19-4 with Ultracraft 4 arm and Grado cartridge/multiple styluses to play my "78s." I'm 69 and began collecting records since I was 3. Do you believe that I don't know how to play a record? I'm also an archivist for two composers and compiled from multiple source material for 11 CDs for the 2005 Erich Zeisl Vienna Centennial. My late friends included Thomas Chandler (1.5 million records) Music Man Murray (900,000 records maybe), Michael Lane (250,000 records, mostly "78s" who had about 35 stylii, co-invented noise suppression devices possibly the Packburn and also built superb sounding electronics) and a half dozen current remastering engineers. Using 35 different styli would permit the greatest reduction in groove noise (also Ward Marston does the same) but I am too busy (lazy) to be like Michael. I do use a Kirmuss ultrasonic cleaner now for "78s", A Sugarcube would be a benefit without hassle.