Biamp Issues

[ddk]

I was reading Harley's review of the Altaira. I was sort of shocked he used words such as Offensive Sizzle in vocals and Too Hot or Metallic Sheen. I think I am complaining about far less in my system , or maybe the opposite end of the spectrum, and I'm being told to toss my amps and speakers.

Don't forget what you said;

I kind of though about this. My speakers are suppose to like a lot of power. They may be 96 db, but that is not the whole story. They are large 15" paper drivers and it take a solid grip to stop and start them on a dime. I am told some at PAP like a Pass mono 250 amp to drive them. I was hoping with biamp, I might get tighter bass.

To answer the question, what do I really want. I want a tad more bite. A little more life. A little better bass driver control that I believe will create a more realistic musical sound. I think the Dart is a tad soft and that its not as natural and real as it could be. Its lacks that last level of a breath of life.

In some sense, I am up and down on the desire to listen to tubes or SS. My Dartzeel is obviously more linear with less distortion than my Black Shadow 845. I could not do some of the testing I do with wire and bus bars if I did not have the Dartzeel. The Black Shadow is too non linear in its frequency response and heard distortions. But, I still like the sound of the Black Shadow at times. It can give a stringed instrument a life.

.... I have an want to get back to a clean, neutral and accurate sound.

and what is said; you can't get blood out of rocks!

david

 

[Kingrex]

First off, my using "Shocked" was not the correct word. I'm not shocked. I am more affirmed. No matter how good our stuff, there is always something that brings improvement. So no disrespect to Robert or his equipment.

I don't think I am looking for blood out of rocks. Yes, I want a little more bite, life and driver control. That could be fine tuning. Maybe its my source equipment. Maybe its speaker placement or the room. My preamp is scheduled for an upgrade in February. That could change the equation a lot.

Driver control is usually found with more power. (or efficient speaker) Hence the idea to biamp. Driver control can give more bite. Maybe. More likely it will give a sense of ease and air/space. The upgraded Dartzeel Model 2 would probably do more for the bite than biamping. And the upgrade does give me 50% more power. But I don't sense that 50 watts is the same as 300 Watts of Gryphon or Boulder or even Dartzeel 468. Of course, all of them are out of my grasp. I need a new car more than an amp. FWIW, the latest Dartzeel 468 I heard was WOW.

I don't think I am wrong is saying my system might fall to the other side of what Robert is saying his system does on some tracks. Unfortunately, I don't think a ground box gives bite. My sense is what Robert wrote is pretty accurate. Its about what every person with a ground box tells me they hear in their system. I do like natural and real and feel a ground box does take you in that direction so I will try one some day.

No disrespect to your path either. I have listened to a variety of horns in different settings. Maybe 6 different sets of horns. I am usually impressed. But I always walk away thinking it would be hard to live with that sound every day. Its too hot for me. I would probably be looking for a way to tame it down. I can not see a horn as a drop it in place and it plays. I assume they require the same rigorous attention to detail as any other speaker to have them operate at peak performance. Their are forum dedicated to horns and SET amps. All they talk about is how to extract the most possible. Owner obsess over drivers, crossover, cables, room, horn itself. Horns are just a different path. I would rather my personal system error to soft than a little hot. I don't at all like having my neck tighten up and head cock sideways when the intensity is too much. That is a no go for me. Of course, Ralph will say that is a distortion issue. I would assume said distortin could come from the amp or the speaker.

I talked with a technician about my Audio Black Shadow. He to said sell them and try something different. I probably need to get around to selling them. I am still curious about the Whammerdyne 2A3 amp. Pat has had plenty of time to get that amp dialed in. Last time I heard it, it played very well. A whole lot of snap an dynamics. From what I heard, the other end of the spectrum to my Dartzeel.

 

[ddk]

First off, my using "Shocked" was not the correct word. I'm not shocked. I am more affirmed. No matter how good our stuff, there is always something that brings improvement. So no disrespect to Robert or his equipment.

I don't think I am looking for blood out of rocks. Yes, I want a little more bite, life and driver control. That could be fine tuning. Maybe its my source equipment. Maybe its speaker placement or the room. My preamp is scheduled for an upgrade in February. That could change the equation a lot.

Driver control is usually found with more power. (or efficient speaker) Hence the idea to biamp. Driver control can give more bite. Maybe. More likely it will give a sense of ease and air/space. The upgraded Dartzeel Model 2 would probably do more for the bite than biamping. And the upgrade does give me 50% more power. But I don't sense that 50 watts is the same as 300 Watts of Gryphon or Boulder or even Dartzeel 468. Of course, all of them are out of my grasp. I need a new car more than an amp. FWIW, the latest Dartzeel 468 I heard was WOW.

I don't think I am wrong is saying my system might fall to the other side of what Robert is saying his system does on some tracks. Unfortunately, I don't think a ground box gives bite. My sense is what Robert wrote is pretty accurate. Its about what every person with a ground box tells me they hear in their system. I do like natural and real and feel a ground box does take you in that direction so I will try one some day.

No disrespect to your path either. I have listened to a variety of horns in different settings. Maybe 6 different sets of horns. I am usually impressed. But I always walk away thinking it would be hard to live with that sound every day. Its too hot for me. I would probably be looking for a way to tame it down. I can not see a horn as a drop it in place and it plays. I assume they require the same rigorous attention to detail as any other speaker to have them operate at peak performance. Their are forum dedicated to horns and SET amps. All they talk about is how to extract the most possible. Owner obsess over drivers, crossover, cables, room, horn itself. Horns are just a different path. I would rather my personal system error to soft than a little hot. I don't at all like having my neck tighten up and head cock sideways when the intensity is too much. That is a no go for me. Of course, Ralph will say that is a distortion issue. I would assume said distortin could come from the amp or the speaker.

I talked with a technician about my Audio Black Shadow. He to said sell them and try something different. I probably need to get around to selling them. I am still curious about the Whammerdyne 2A3 amp. Pat has had plenty of time to get that amp dialed in. Last time I heard it, it played very well. A whole lot of snap an dynamics. From what I heard, the other end of the spectrum to my Dartzeel.

We’re discussing your path not mine, I am where I wanted to be for over 20 years. Never made any specific recommendations based on my preferences either, SET, horn or otherwise I’m only trying to help you organize your thoughts and figure it out for yourself, isn’t that how you put it out there? I said you’re trying to get blood of rocks is because you seem to like and want lower powered tube amps but own speakers that require a lot of power so much so that your current mid powered SS amp isn’t enough. Also an amp that’s not particularly what you like, but you want to double up on it, these are the proverbial rocks you’re looking at.

Your latest comment;

… the Whammerdyne 2A3 amp… Last time I heard it, it played very well. A whole lot of snap an dynamics. From what I heard, the other end of the spectrum to my Dartzeel.

Going by what you wrote IMO doubling up on the same SS power and keeping your current speakers isn’t going to get you where you want to be. Instead why don’t you consider more efficient speakers as a first step? They won’t drain your Dart and you can see if you’ll like it any better if not they’ll give you a path to lower powered tube amps which is hat you seem to want.

david

 

[Kingrex]

I remember years ago people on Audionirvana talking about critical components. Most people were pointing at the amp/speaker and room. But there were people saying to not discount the front end. Back in the day my amp and speaker were as such that front end changes were not as apparent. And maybe I was not as in tune with what I was hearing. Fast forward to today, I am much more aware of front end changes and what they bring. Enough so I have committed to additional preamp modifications on my First Sound, purchase a new phono stage and tone arm cable, as well as invested in a new record cleaner and had all my phono cartridges analyzed and bought cartridge set up tools.

I have heard quite a few very nice systems. I never come home and feel disappointed in mine. In many ways I prefer what I have and am happy to have it. Do I hear certain aspects in other systems I prefer over mine. Sure. Would I want that system in my room. Generally as a whole, no. I would rather be able to take a small snip of this or that and use it to shape what I have.

Part of Daves first response I took to be, 2 amps as opposed to one won't necessarily add Bite. It will add other things. I generally believe that to be the case. So biamping to seek that in my system is not a route I am seeking at the moment.

If my speakers were 2 way and not 3 way, I might think much different about biamp as I could get an active analog crosover and direct couple the amps to speakers. That I have done in my system to a Voxativ driver and it was a shock what it voiced like. Best violin it ever played. But it completely fell apart on vocals and piano. But I saw the glimpse.

I know front end alterations will change it. I have invested in them. So far I have installed an analysed cartridge and its definitely more clean and revealing of what is in the groove. And I think there is a touch more dynamic contrast.

And I want to try a ground box. I have seen threads in the past talking about the various options. I need to dig them up and start looking at what each offers.

In a long wordy way I am saying, trashing my speaker/amp for some other speaker amp with their own set of issues is not in my cards any time soon. I don't know if I will ever change the speaker. I like them that much. Will I possible get a 6 channel class D amp like some Atmasphere or Legacy IV6, then use a Marchand active analog crossover, maybe. That might be an amazing sound. And will I try another tube amp? Probably. I can't help myself. There is something about them.

For now, there are a lot of other options that will allow me to shape what I hear and move the needle to a more complete sound for me.

FWIW, my wife and I have gone to live performances a few times this year. Every time she says she prefers the sound we have at home. I agree on many levels, but there is something special about live I have never heard any stereo do.