Bitcoin

It's one of the largest ecological disasters of all time. For greed. That's the common denominator I see. And the financial "experts" who love btc all come off as complete idiots. Those who ignore or justify the energy and resource use have done some mental gymnastics to justify it.

I looked into it when btc cost <$1. I was considering buying some miner that would cost me about $300/month to operate. At that point it was used almost exclusively for criminal enterprise and money laundering. Those who think "it's an open ledger, you can't do that!" have no clue. You are the one who doesn't "get it".

I did consider it again when Elon decided to take btc for payment and endorsed doge. Now I am absolutely sure Elon, despite his genius, has a few screws loose too.

I know... I don't get it. OTOH, I'm making plenty of money and the only thing btc would get me is fancier toys for the price of my ethical integrity... I am content investing in myself.
 
I know... I don't get it. OTOH, I'm making plenty of money and the only thing btc would get me is fancier toys for the price of my ethical integrity... I am content investing in myself.
Maybe you do get it and you just don't like it.
 
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The concern of making endless new perfectly good proof of work cryptocurrencies has been addressed by somebody I watched recently. I've been trying to find it but I can't remember his name. His argument was that all other cryptocurrencies are scams and junk. The reason is: only one cryptocurrency is needed. So the first good one is the last good one. It's a winner takes all situation.
I disagree that Ethereum is "scam and junk." Ethereum's ability to auto-execute and auto-terminate swap contracts, for example, is totally brilliant.

Jeremy can probably tell us why nobody is making new proof of work cryptocurrencies.

I have no problem agreeing that Bitcoin is all one needs to achieve the concept of "digital gold" and to underpin the principles of crypto-anarchy.
 
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It's one of the largest ecological disasters of all time. For greed. That's the common denominator I see. . . . Those who ignore or justify the energy and resource use have done some mental gymnastics to justify it.

I don't understand. Do you think Bitcoin miners do not pay for the electricity they use, just like we pay for the electricity we use to power our tube amplifiers?
 
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I disagree that Ethereum is "scam and junk." Ethereum's ability to auto-execute and auto-terminate swap contracts, for example, is totally brilliant.

Jeremy can probably tell us why nobody is making new proof of work cryptocurrencies.

I have no problem agreeing that Bitcoin is all one needs to achieve the concept of "digital gold" and to underpin the principles of crypto-anarchy.
The guy who called Ethereum scam and junk isn't holding any of it. He's holding Bitcoin. It gives me the impression he feels threatened by the others.
Bitcoin acts like "digital gold" but not as much like "bit coin." Maybe they should change the name to Bitbar, referring to a bar of gold.
 
I don't understand. Do you think Bitcoin miners do not pay for the electricity they use, just like we pay for the electricity we use to power our tube amplifiers?
Of course they pay for it, but if you're not convinced of the value of the concept it looks like a colossal waste of energy, land and resources. It's more like turning the tube amp on for a few years in a hot climate while never listening to it. You get to run the air conditioner more too! Once the tubes are burned out you can save those as proof of work. You can then move up to a large facility with thousands of tube amps to produce burned out tubes faster, so long as people keep buying them for some reason.

Hey, maybe a smart use of all this energy used to mine crypto could be to warm apartment buildings or shopping malls in cold climates. They have to heat them somehow.
 
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I don't understand. Do you think Bitcoin miners do not pay for the electricity they use, just like we pay for the electricity we use to power our tube amplifiers?

I think the consuption is unreasonable. From the top of google search:

Key Bitcoin Energy Consumption Statistics:

One Bitcoin transaction can spend up to 1,200 kWh of energy, which is equivalent to almost 100,000 VISA transactions. Bitcoin mining uses about the same amount of electricity as the state of Washington does every year.


How much electricity is needed to mine 1 Bitcoin?

The fact is that even the most efficient Bitcoin mining operation takes roughly 155,000 kWh to mine one Bitcoin. By way of comparison, the average US household consumes about 900 kWh per month.



This doesn't even account for the cost in resources and energy the computer equipment, cooling systems, buildings and associated infrastructure costs in both energy and resources needed to install a btc mining operation.

Also, there have been global GPU shortages that have driven prices for such computer equipment higher for everyone.

Finally, nearly without exception, everyone who thinks btc is a good idea does it from a place of imagining fiat is inherently bad and those who control it are nefarious actors participating in some conspiracy. So, folks who tend to believe conspiracy theories and take a victim mindset about their own situation.
 
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I think the consuption is unreasonable.
Thank you for explaining. Each of us is entitled to our personal opinion.
 
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Thank you for explaining. Each of us is entitled to our personal opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly with DaveC. And DaveC, thanks for digging up some stats. The energy consumption is mind boggling.
 
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I don’t know about your chair analogy. I have many pieces of fine furniture that are worth less now than the cost to build them was. They depreciate quickly and deeply, particularly if they’re not an Eames chair.

So, I suppose you’re talking about NEW chairs/BTC? I honestly don’t see why new BTC couldn’t end up worth less than the electricity required to mine it. Not that there would be oversupply, but that there would just be very little demand for the mined token. If you see BTC as a ‘fad’ or bubble like I do now, then what’s to stop it’s street value from basically going to nothing?



Fair point regarding the true definition of Ponzi. This is not Bernie Madoff. But as you said, its appreciation beyond a certain point requires new entrants. What point is that? Have we maybe reached it yet? What happens when there is a mass exit from the market?

Comparing BTC to fiat is interesting, but not all that useful, in my opinion. A LOT more is riding on fiat staying useful than BTC staying an appreciating asset, and there are infinitely more stakeholders for fiat’s existence. Unfortunately for BTC, there are fiat stakeholders who have more power than BTC stakeholders, and they can tank BTC if they want to.

The chair example has the parallel that eventually used or not there is nothing left to sell as one can only then produce new. And to that bit, freshly minted BTC go for a premium actually. The main point being just that everyone can sell at a loss till no one has any reason to sell at all, and then new BTC will cost $45k or whatever it is right now to produce.

Mass exits are affecting the price less and less over time because there are so many buyers. However if we see an economic flop I suspect the paper side of BTC will dip hard with it but it will not last long because ETFs etc will buy the dip, as well anyone who is an experienced BTC buyer. If anything I expect it to recover faster than traditional markets of all types, which will make it looks even more appealing to other things to be in on it.
 
Luckily i dont believe in conspiracies .

If the government says Bitcoin is bad and inflation is good i believe m

No government actually says that.
 
I was having lunch with a techie friend today and we discussed the massive power requirements of server farms that power AI. The North American grid won't be sufficient without some significant (read: nuke) power additions. But as a stopgap, bitcoin mining farms could be outlawed. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Just like that Texas example posted, there are lots of BTC mining operations in the US already. However they use almost no power at all compared to the expected AI you have mentioned. BTC does not even use as much power as a lot of other industries. "the grid" is an anomalous description because different power plants want more customers others want less peak times etc etc. It is only certain areas of the country that are stress maxing, and often only specific areas in a state. One of the biggest issues is not generating power but getting it from point A to point B. Even tiny projects can take years.
 
No government actually says that.
Look at a mans actions not his words
Replace man for government/ Banks

They Hollowed out the middle class and the poor with their policies ( 10 year 0 % interest rates , last thing left to ruin is the currency they can never get rates back to normal to much debt

People with assets are doing OK off course.
 
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Thank you for explaining. Each of us is entitled to our personal opinion.
We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. Every extra ton of CO2 we add to the atmosphere is contributing to a climate disaster. Bitcoin is needlessly adding millions of tons of CO2 to the atmosphere. Assuming that bitcoin has some legitimate purpose other than speculation, money laundering and blackmail, the blockchain calculations could be done with far less energy use. It is a fact that bitcoin is doing enormous damage to the future of our planet.
 
I disagree that Ethereum is "scam and junk." Ethereum's ability to auto-execute and auto-terminate swap contracts, for example, is totally brilliant.

Jeremy can probably tell us why nobody is making new proof of work cryptocurrencies.

I have no problem agreeing that Bitcoin is all one needs to achieve the concept of "digital gold" and to underpin the principles of crypto-anarchy.

Well the technology in Ethereum is not unique. It is not unique to the point that BTC for awhile has been able to incorporate similar but slightly different and functionally the same actions as ETH. But other blockchains do it for a lot less money. Polygon is very popular in corporate development.

To me it is the same issue as with XRP. XRP does not gain money value because it is used as a settlement network. You are on and off in an incredibly short amount of time, down to mere seconds. The whole point is to skip clearing houses and not have value shift so it is extremely cheap in GAS fees and preferably more stable. ETH has steep gas fees on any given day so it has issues there. People would always say, "banks are so rich they do not care about gas fees" which seems to be a gross misunderstanding of the banking industry - tolerating costs is different than willingly absorbing them. So the implementation has a lot to do with it all, and if it can compete with trad finance. Honestly I am not completely sure why they are/have not adopted more and started using it for more things because some of this seems like pretty easily solved problems. Hire me, we will work on it.

Short term I am bullish on ETH, long term not so much. I think the fact it has taken this long for people to see any appeal in BTC means ETH lags it a lot. It is about 7 years younger as well.
Of course they pay for it, but if you're not convinced of the value of the concept it looks like a colossal waste of energy, land and resources. It's more like turning the tube amp on for a few years in a hot climate while never listening to it. You get to run the air conditioner more too! Once the tubes are burned out you can save those as proof of work. You can then move up to a large facility with thousands of tube amps to produce burned out tubes faster, so long as people keep buying them for some reason.

Hey, maybe a smart use of all this energy used to mine crypto could be to warm apartment buildings or shopping malls in cold climates. They have to heat them somehow.

Oh yes, just what we need, another excuse to try to keep shopping malls alive... If you want to really make that case you might as well just embrace your true misanthropy and say humans are a colossal waste. Just FYI BTC is the industry leader in using "renewable" energy - although wind should be outright banned and dismantled ASAP as it is the only true ecological disaster here.

I think a lot of people would like to integrate mining into buildings etc but truth is the power infrastructure is not there.

We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. Every extra ton of CO2 we add to the atmosphere is contributing to a climate disaster. Bitcoin is needlessly adding millions of tons of CO2 to the atmosphere. Assuming that bitcoin has some legitimate purpose other than speculation, money laundering and blackmail, the blockchain calculations could be done with far less energy use. It is a fact that bitcoin is doing enormous damage to the future of our planet.

Meh. At this point I think anyone taking a rational look can see that CO2 scares are about tax credits and essentially an obfuscated way to legally pollute the environment since it is an amorphous moving target that isn't represented by the numbers. Short examples: hybrids are less CO2 but the push is on EVs, plastic bag bans turned into making the customer pay for bags that are 100x thicker plastic so they now pay to pollute the environment 100x more, etc.

As pointed out above BTC actually does a lot of hydro etc. The miners can be recycled to a certain degree, or the equipment if oil bathed is reused semi-indefinitely. It is absolutely nothing compared to the coming AI craze that will result in all technological faucets being used to drive us insane with ads and stuff.

Reports go back and forth on BTC energy but it is somewhere between half and 56x less than trad forms. People say it services less people but the irony is to service people on BTC or other cryptos it only uses the energy they already use on computer and phones. The new arguments are focused around CO2 because then they can claim new facilities, infrastructure, and miner deployments in the figured to offset the fact the electricity itself is not that high.

Honestly unless you have a minor background in something you could not really pick apart all the ridiculous claims from facts. Like this place starts the article with utter nonsense of how BTC works, very loosely extrapolated from reality in such a way it makes no real sense. I actually stopped right there because I know that anyone going to that big of an effort to confuse a reader has nothing but nefariously biased content to provide. That or the person has an IQ of 65 and somehow an overcapacity ability to read and write. Honestly I have no idea how someone could unintentionally be like that short of being an actual alien to earth. I am not taking the time to decode their scramble of reality. One of the other sites claiming how bad BTC is told me my browser is out of date - like that would make any difference for displaying text - when it is in fact not and they are out of date morons that want everyone on Chrome and Edge so they can track and sell your data.

I guess I will finish with a comment on the ridiculous claims of bad acting with BTC. Has it been used for bad acts a few times? Yes. But only because bank transactions can be reversed - which should make you uneasy that they just decide what happens with your money. The reality is more like this... Don't quote me on who said it, I think an idiot politician was pointing out some cartel used cryptocurrency for something like $680k and that was bad but neglected the fact that it made up less than 10% of their transacted money in their evil empire. All that tells us is that some of their relationships used something other than USD, which could have just of easily been any other currency. The reality is the most crimes world wide are probably backed by USD, whether or not the USA is supporting them or not. Here is some fire to the flame, that 10% crypto could have all been USDC or USDT which is an onchain version of USD, which both creators have to hold USD balances equal to the USDC/USDT on chain.... so the USD representation may have been significantly higher.
 
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It's one of the largest ecological disasters of all time. For greed. That's the common denominator I see. And the financial "experts" who love btc all come off as complete idiots. Those who ignore or justify the energy and resource use have done some mental gymnastics to justify it.

I looked into it when btc cost <$1. I was considering buying some miner that would cost me about $300/month to operate. At that point it was used almost exclusively for criminal enterprise and money laundering. Those who think "it's an open ledger, you can't do that!" have no clue. You are the one who doesn't "get it".

I did consider it again when Elon decided to take btc for payment and endorsed doge. Now I am absolutely sure Elon, despite his genius, has a few screws loose too.

I know... I don't get it. OTOH, I'm making plenty of money and the only thing btc would get me is fancier toys for the price of my ethical integrity... I am content investing in myself.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. Bitcoin is not about greed. It is about sound money. Bitcoin is a whole different paradigm.
I don’t deny that people buy Bitcoin with an expectation of increased value.
But this is primarily accomplished by the devaluation of USD and other currencies around the world. Just like all other assets.
 

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