Bitcoin

[NorthStar]

Don't keep telling people they don't understand. I do get it, I almost invested in as mining rig years ago.

IMO, the entire premise is flawed, and it was indeed started as an anonymous payment system for criminals to use. The fact it doesn't work and the transactions are traceable is a FAILURE of bitcoin, as is it's ridiculous "mining" system where the cost of energy to "mine" bitcoin is held a bit below it's actual value.

But whatever, if the last couple years have brought anything into the light, it's the stupidity of human beings. This is stupid, 5000 lb Teslas are stupid, Trump Vs Kim Jong Un is possibly the stupidest and most pathetic thing the world has seen and everyone should feel disgrace that they are of the same species as them.

So, no surprise that bitcoin is taking off... but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

Music is the liberator, the freedom fighter, music has us, it's in us...without it we wouldn't be here talking. Without music we are lost. ...And bitcoin with it. :b

More than bitcoin we have stereo equipment, if bitcoin can provide us with the best hi-fi equipment and access to more beautiful recorded world music, can bitcoin be an evil machination?

One million dollars by the year 2020, for one bitcoin only. Some people dream way overboard or they live @ the bottom of the ocean. Yes it's like a frenzy, a pyramid of the internet, a cyberpunk scam attack to collect people's money, and makes it a grand illusion of disproportionate sidetrack to keep us away from all the alienation of real life existing in the world.

But us humans we like games, we like gambling; are we so off that we are becoming more and more blind to what's important going on?

Bitcoin is not winning strategy, we are, in the way we play the game.

 

[ack]

Bitcoin exchange Coinbase ordered to hand over customer data to IRS

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bitcoi...a-to-irs/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=45441866

 

[Folsom]

What gives fiat money worth starts with the fact that each sovereign entity around the globe has things called laws that bind its citizens to certain behaviors punishable by things like imprisonment or fines for lack of compliance. A common example of such laws is the requirement that citizens pay to the sovereign entity a portion of the earnings in the form of a tax. This creates a financial obligation on the part of the citizen that the sovereign entity agrees can be settled by tendering a specific currency designated by the sovereign entity to avoid imprisonment or additional financial duties. This inturn gives the financial systems in such countries confidence to settle debts in the same currency. No such concept applies anywhere in the developed world for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin's value on the other hand, while initially predicated largely on its role as a mechanism for off the grid payments and laundering at transaction costs less than the market rate, has evolved into a purely speculative game that is a lot of fun to play but is not predicated on anything of substance. Make no mistake there are now countless players of varying degrees of credibility actively pitching valuations with unrestrained conviction based hope and dreams. This is the essence of a speculative bubble. It is as if a new vehicle has finally been developed that could be used to settle one's debts.....oh wait that's been around for a while and it's called fiat currency and it stores value but does not magically create it out of thin air. This whole thing will end when the sovereign entities require compliance of all bitcoin transactions with international taxation and legal systems at which time bitcoin just becomes another currency but one that is not accepted by the banking system or the sovereign entities ergo it will be recognized as a simple redundancy serving no meaningful economic purpose.

In the meantime it is a lot of fun to watch but I am not selling my Tulips.

Use it or go to prison... Impressive backing. But state fiat is also massively vulnerable to inflation. It has no hard lined control of any kind. Look at countries in South America, and how 1 Bitcoin is worth 1 billion VFD. The stability of Bitcoin, even during a huge dip, vastly exceeds what can happen to fiat in any given country.

If you read the original Bitcoin white paper it has a simple mission, to be a currency not vulnerable to manipulation and to eliminate double spending, aka eliminate the IOU system and hence clearing houses. Considering it makes no effort to hide transactions happening it is nearly the antithesis to what would be preferred for money laundering.

Fiat doesn't store value. It continually inflates so you have to make it make more money or you lose money by just sitting on it. Do you think banks like that? No.


Bitcoin's value: impossible to double spend, no clearing houses are needed, IOU's don't exist so true value is always transfered, supported globally to be resistant to economic trends of any given country, cannot be manipulated by "printing" more to cause inflation or bail out entities, transparent for transactions, inherently appreciates in a controlled manner to prevent stagnation, unhackable so identity theft is impossible with a cold wallet

Fiat value: it's already in use, used for more crimes than can be possibly accounted for, unmarked bills are not only untraceable but also transactions are unknown, IOU systems from banks allow double spending without clearing houses (and possibly with), can be printed to save failed institutions (but not their investors), can only inflate (especially if a country has economic problems), control systems of keeping IOU's honest require constant registration that leaves you open to identity theft, and you go to prison for not using it



Cryptos can be used in economies that have no stabilization. Africa is a perfect example where this is becoming a thing because the local governments and such are useless for doing international business in respect for reliable transfer of assets. Simply people in many African countries wish to work by selling resources and manufactured things, so they are turning to digital currency to allow businesses to happen while politics are doing their same old thing of turning upside down constantly. A similar notion goes for people in countries with failed states like Greece.

They allow businesses to get paid when otherwise red tape of technicalities would prevent payment. For example doing business with certain countries isn't "banned" always but may have a plethora of sanctions that can get payments lost like large industrial situations. My uncle was a victim of this type of fraud that included a US Senator screwing him. With a cryptocurrency he wouldn't have wasted years of his life and lost his retirement. The shipping industry has caught onto this situation as well, since they can demand a non-IOU payment in the form of cryptocurrency.

Banking also isn't an option in some countries. Did you know that in China using a digital currency is common place, through the WeChat system, because banking is unrealistic for countless people? China's banking system is on the edge of corruption constantly, has many mountains of problems, an is generally inaccessible to a vast amount of people because of all the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Folsom]

Bitcoin exchange Coinbase ordered to hand over customer data to IRS

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bitcoi...a-to-irs/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=45441866

That is an interesting problem. Fact of the matter is there is no avoiding "income" from it if you cash out. If you cash out it goes to your bank...

They have no good reason to request capitol gain tax. First off what are the taxes paying? What is their purpose? Bitcoin is out of the purview of the state because no state can exert it's citizen rights onto the blockchain. All taxes that allow the internet, computers, etc, to exist have already been paid. If anything Bitcoin subsides law enforcement by making their job much easier.

It doesn't evade taxes because all businesses have to charge sales tax and pay tax. The only cheating here is cheating that already exists. Frankly it's easier to cheat with fiat dollars that go unaccounted for in this realm, or with legal cheating through large MSB services that already exist.

Even much more laughable is that there are no capitol gain taxes applied to institutional Bitcoin investment through stock market & future products becoming available, until you cash out. The taxes are also lower when you cash out. If your exchange has other products you can reinvest after selling Bitcoin products, and not pay any taxes. If you invest in something that pays dividends then there are no taxes on those. And yet people that are not accredited traders are expected to pay tax on something the government cannot provide basic rights on? Wow. Screw the poor, right? Crush them like the bugs they are...

In many ways this is just a way to insure identity theft is kept strong.

 

[NorthStar]

Bitcoin exchange Coinbase ordered to hand over customer data to IRS

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bitcoi...a-to-irs/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=45441866

There is also the Panama Papers, and the safe heavens of the Jamaican banks.
Where does this money goes for the good use of the economy? Nowhere near reinvested in our people living in our country.

 

[NorthStar]

That is an interesting problem. Fact of the matter is there is no avoiding "income" from it if you cash out. If you cash out it goes to your bank...

They have no good reason to request capitol gain tax. First off what are the taxes paying? What is their purpose? Bitcoin is out of the purview of the state because no state can exert it's citizen rights onto the blockchain. All taxes that allow the internet, computers, etc, to exist have already been paid. If anything Bitcoin subsides law enforcement by making their job much easier.

It doesn't evade taxes because all businesses have to charge sales tax and pay tax. The only cheating here is cheating that already exists. Frankly it's easier to cheat with fiat dollars that go unaccounted for in this realm, or with legal cheating through large MSB services that already exist.

Even much more laughable is that there are no capitol gain taxes applied to institutional Bitcoin investment through stock market & future products becoming available, until you cash out. The taxes are also lower when you cash out. If your exchange has other products you can reinvest after selling Bitcoin products, and not pay any taxes. If you invest in something that pays dividends then there are no taxes on those. And yet people that are not accredited traders are expected to pay tax on something the government cannot provide basic rights on? Wow. Screw the poor, right? Crush them like the bugs they are...

That's why the futures, the stock exchanges, NASDAQ, the banks, the government, the regulators, IRS, all want in, and they will. ...Taxes to collect, more revenues to our elected, to the vultures, unmasking the invisible, tax collectors becoming hackers, etc. :b

Those mining farms have better get a good handle on overheating...

 

[NorthStar]

Retrospect: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoin-a-beginners-guide/

Extra: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/nob...crash-wont-go-to-zero-it-will-just-come-down/

 

[Folsom]

The government wouldn't collect tax on my bank account if USD appreciated (as laughable as that is).

You're taking the common way to look at it Bob, and not realizing how new and different the technology happens to be. The government should be looking at nation wealth appreciating greatly. Considering Russia and other countries will not be employing these taxes, the government is just trying to hurt itself ultimately.

If everyone remains non-compliant with forking over money for no damn reason, the government will be forced to learn to understand cryptocurriencies, and make appropriate laws. They are trying to sweep it under the status-quo rug because it's easy, not because it makes sense.

 

[NorthStar]

Here's how I truly see it:

We born, we go to school, learn a trade or three, practice work, raise families, provide bread and purified water from the grocery stores, entertain ourselves with music concerts and movie theaters, pay the home utility and repair bills, buy a new electric car, ...etc., etc., etc., ....brief we contribute to our society and economy by working hard for the planet and paying back to the redistributors above who are mostly corrupted by serving themselves first than serving the mandate accorded to them by us, who elected them to do an honest job like we do ourselves. ...They went to school too, and learned few trades as well.

Someone smart, Japanese maybe, thought of something else based on a currency of the internet, harder to track, ideal for criminals, where not only the drug lords and hackers can have fun but everyone.

And everyone means many people because the internet is big. And bitcoin has big potential because when you realise the true power of it all for everyone, you simply don't want to be left behind and rot in trenches of the world where no one care.

Our planet Earth is a capitalistic planet, and not an idealistic planet.
Bitcoin fits the bill perfectly in this era of high speed data transfer.
How many times have we read about hackers and identity thefts and credit card frauds? How many times have we seen abuse and slavery and dominance and corruption, every day.

Security and privacy. Those bitcoin mining farms around the globe and expanding, the computer data experts that's what they need to keep learning every day, to keep up and to keep creating new security/privacy measures and implementing them every single day.

The young fresh tech gurus from universities, that's where job opportunities of the future are; in security and in privacy. Today everything is being exposed, and with it comes big changements. Bitcoin is part of that change, spare change for everyone.
_____

Bonus: https://medium.com/@MiguelCuneta_21...e-doesn-t-reflect-its-true-value-6b42a59fce0a

 

[Pb Blimp]

Use it or go to prison... Impressive backing. But state fiat is also massively vulnerable to inflation. It has no hard lined control of any kind. Look at countries in South America, and how 1 Bitcoin is worth 1 billion VFD. The stability of Bitcoin, even during a huge dip, vastly exceeds what can happen to fiat in any given country.

If you read the original Bitcoin white paper it has a simple mission, to be a currency not vulnerable to manipulation and to eliminate double spending, aka eliminate the IOU system and hence clearing houses. Considering it makes no effort to hide transactions happening it is nearly the antithesis to what would be preferred for money laundering.

Fiat doesn't store value. It continually inflates so you have to make it make more money or you lose money by just sitting on it. Do you think banks like that? No.


Bitcoin's value: impossible to double spend, no clearing houses are needed, IOU's don't exist so true value is always transfered, supported globally to be resistant to economic trends of any given country, cannot be manipulated by "printing" more to cause inflation or bail out entities, transparent for transactions, inherently appreciates in a controlled manner to prevent stagnation, unhackable so identity theft is impossible with a cold wallet

Fiat value: it's already in use, used for more crimes than can be possibly accounted for, unmarked bills are not only untraceable but also transactions are unknown, IOU systems from banks allow double spending without clearing houses (and possibly with), can be printed to save failed institutions (but not their investors), can only inflate (especially if a country has economic problems), control systems of keeping IOU's honest require constant registration that leaves you open to identity theft, and you go to prison for not using it



Cryptos can be used in economies that have no stabilization. Africa is a perfect example where this is becoming a thing because the local governments and such are useless for doing international business in respect for reliable transfer of assets. Simply people in many African countries wish to work by selling resources and manufactured things, so they are turning to digital currency to allow businesses to happen while politics are doing their same old thing of turning upside down constantly. A similar notion goes for people in countries with failed states like Greece.

They allow businesses to get paid when otherwise red tape of technicalities would prevent payment. For example doing business with certain countries isn't "banned" always but may have a plethora of sanctions that can get payments lost like large industrial situations. My uncle was a victim of this type of fraud that included a US Senator screwing him. With a cryptocurrency he wouldn't have wasted years of his life and lost his retirement. The shipping industry has caught onto this situation as well, since they can demand a non-IOU payment in the form of cryptocurrency.

Banking also isn't an option in some countries. Did you know that in China using a digital currency is common place, through the WeChat system, because banking is unrealistic for countless people? China's banking system is on the edge of corruption constantly, has many mountains of problems, an is generally inaccessible to a vast amount of people because of all the aforementioned reasons.

It's quite obvious what you are trying to do. Not my thing but hey as long as it's not illegal to use these kind of claims to arbitrage human weakness and ignorance you can do you.

 

[NorthStar]

One of my buddies last week asked me if we knew of some people who struck rich from bitcoin.

• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/12/02/winklevoss-twins-become-first-bitcoin-billionaires/

 

[Folsom]

It's quite obvious what you are trying to do. Not my thing but hey as long as it's not illegal to use these kind of claims to arbitrage human weakness and ignorance you can do you.

Obvious to you, I have no idea what you're getting at. If you think I am for removal of fiat, I am not at all. I simply prefer to point out the silliness of being begrudgeon against cryptos.

 

[opus112]

Fiat doesn't store value. It continually inflates so you have to make it make more money or you lose money by just sitting on it.

Fiat doesn't store value at all, even if by some fluke inflation didn't occur. Fiat is simply like a pointer (in C language) to some value in another place. Don't confuse the signifier with that signified.

Do you think banks like that? No.

I very much doubt they care either way. Its banks' printing fiat which in economics is the very definition of inflation.

I very much agree that crypto is superior to fiat, not that I'm an 'investor'. I only need to see Jamie Dimon trying to diss bitcoin to know its a good thing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I only need to see Jamie Dimon trying to diss bitcoin to know its a good thing.

+1!

 

[Folsom]

Did you guys know that JP Morgan bought A LOT of Bitcoin, right after he said it's a scam?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I posted above that JPMorgan is setting up a desk, so yes.

 

[NorthStar]

What the hell, I'm in now. I just hold on till 2021-2022 and see what happens. I lost big amounts in the past, in the mid six figures, so a low five figures won't stress me for one bit. If I am waiting for the bubble to explode and buy really low, it might never happen.

Just for the kick of fun:

• https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/123015/if-you-had-purchased-100-bitcoins-2011.asp

And I agree with this: • https://99bitcoins.com/should-i-invest-in-bitcoin-heres-what-you-need-to-know/

Plus: • https://www.quora.com/Should-I-invest-100-in-BTC
____

$100, $1,000, $10,000, $100,000 or more ... REMEMBER – Only You can answer this.
You can consult others and read online but never follow someone’s advice blindly.

 

[NorthStar]

... I only need to see Jamie Dimon trying to diss bitcoin to know its a good thing.

+1!

Did you guys know that JP Morgan bought A LOT of Bitcoin, right after he said it's a scam?

JP Morgan doesn't want to miss this ride.

Folsom, I'm all 111% with your positive outlook, with your optimism. It's only me speaking here, to you.
And it's only me who decide. It's nobody who make my own choice.

Now, wish me lock/luck ... bitcoin bob :b

 

[NorthStar]

I'm ready, bring it on, any news, I'm expecting anything, and this one I knew was coming up: • http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...down-amid-fears-money-laundering-tax-dodging/

Volatility I ain't scared.
_____

1 Bitcoin equals
14515.44 Canadian Dollar
_____

• http://fortune.com/2017/12/03/heres-what-bitcoins-smartest-skeptics-are-telling-investors/
• https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/03/b...-if-the-bitcoin-dream-is-about-to-crash-down/
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-using-bitcoin-cashpoints-launder-money.html
• http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2122500/why-bitcoin-fever-bubble-waiting-burst

All those brand new links above, except the TechCrunch one, screw them all; what counts @ the end/in the short run of the longer journey is links like the one below:

?? https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/03/bitcoin-hits-all-time-high-above-11700-as-recovery-accelerates.html

 

[NorthStar]

About that!

• http://www.mining.com/gold-companys-stock-jumps-1300-switching-bitcoin/