Cables and the Peter Principle

[Bruce B]

Still, even if this is the case, it suggests that the differences between cables are far less than differences between amps, speakers, cartridges, etc. And given that you could significantly upgrade those other components for what some cables cost, audiophiles should probably be more careful with their purchasing decisions.

Which is why the cables are the LAST thing you need to upgrade after you have everything else as good as you can get it, including the room!

 

[RogerD]

Which is why the cables are the LAST thing you need to upgrade after you have everything else as good as you can get it, including the room!

That's my experience. I should add though mine are very quiet.

 

[NorthStar]

Which is why the cables are the LAST thing you need to upgrade after you have everything else as good as you can get it, including the room!

Should the cable be the most important thing first in a system if you want to hear the best performance from your gear?
How do you know that you have the best gear without having the best cable first?

 

[dingus]

Should the cable be the most important thing first in a system if you want to hear the best performance from your gear?
How do you know that you have the best gear without having the best cable first?

the question has been answered -

Still, even if this is the case, it suggests that the differences between cables are far less than differences between amps, speakers, cartridges, etc.

...and also because wire cant make your gear sound better, only different.

but, if you can name the best cable it would bring a quick end to these debates.

 

[microstrip]

Should the cable be the most important thing first in a system if you want to hear the best performance from your gear?
How do you know that you have the best gear without having the best cable first?

A very good point. I would have never bought my system if I have not listened to it using cables that reasonably matched it. Also, it is easy to fool people using top cables, much more expensive than the equipment.

 

[microstrip]

the question has been answered -
...and also because wire cant make your gear sound better, only different.

but, if you can name the best cable it would bring a quick end to these debates.

IMHO the differences are enough to ruin the magic of a good system - does this mean that they are also able to create it?

If the "different" suits better our preferences we can call it better. People should know that "better" in sound reproduction most of time means just that. And there is no "best" cable - just "best cables for some specific system and room according to some people".

 

[microstrip]

Dingus, thats good about the "best" cable. Heck man, every year for the last twenty years altleast, dozens of the "best" cable is brought out each year, so we have likea couple hundred best cables in existance, and each one gets accolades....

oh well, could not resist. Guess we still have not got it right yet, must be some hugely complicated thing with infintessimal increments of improvement (obviously that must mean less degradation of the signal...), but by dang folks can hear those incremental degradations going further away with each new best cable.....welcome to the twilight zone!

Listen to three good cables of twenty years ago. Then listen again to their current equivalents. I have done it with Kimber, Nordost and Transparent Audio and I can assure you that the differences are really large (but you are free to tell me they all sounded the same and it was just my imagination ). IMHO the introduction of digital, better electronics and different trends in speaker design have forced cable manufacturers to change and upgrade their designs.

 

[rbbert]

A very good point. I would have never bought my system if I have not listened to it using cables that reasonably matched it. Also, it is easy to fool people using top cables, much more expensive than the equipment.

Wow. As much as I'd like for this to be true, it's never been my experience.

 

[microstrip]

Wow. As much as I'd like for this to be true, it's never been my experience.

Just connect a Transparent Reference XL IC at the output of a CD player in a decent system. I have played this "trick" several times with friends. Even non-believers.

 

[dingus]

the question has been answered -
...and also because wire cant make your gear sound better, only different.

i need to retract this statement as it is true for every piece of equipment in the chain. since its not specific to cables, the point doesnt adequately address the question that was raised.

 

[dingus]

...If the "different" suits better our preferences we can call it better. People should know that "better" in sound reproduction most of time means just that. And there is no "best" cable - just "best cables for some specific system and room according to some people".

agreed. heck i like all kinds of different, but they are differences that fall in line with my goals in regards to the sound.

 

[microstrip]

The differences between any of todays reference cables should be undistinguisable, if they are truly designed to deliver a singal from a low impedance to a high impedance with minimal degradation. If you hear differences, none of them are reference and all are flawed for the average consumer.....otherwise they should state the source impedance (and drive level and current), the load impedance and FR across the bandwidth claimed, at a minimum, .............otherwise...........they are creating a crap shoot for you, AND they are...on purpose......and your imagination is your preference man!

No measurment standards means high snake oil factor.

Sorry but this flawed argument has been used before for amplifiers - someone argued that as most AV receivers sound similar and high-end amplifiers sound different this means that AV receivers are perfect and high-end amplifiers are flawed!

But yes, since there are no standard measurements for high-end electronics and cables it is a nice land for snake oil sellers - but just because a few people sell snake oil does not affect the quality and value the excellent devices. Buyers should be careful to avoid poor choices.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sorry but this flawed argument has been used before for amplifiers - someone argued that as most AV receivers sound similar and high-end amplifiers sound different this means that AV receivers are perfect and high-end amplifiers are flawed!

But yes, since there are no standard measurements for high-end electronics and cables it is a nice land for snake oil sellers - but just because a few people sell snake oil does not affect the quality and value the excellent devices. Buyers should be careful to avoid poor choices.

Change this statement to 1) "most AV receivers are built within the same standards and perform predictably, and well, with other equipment, and 2) most high-end amplifiers vary unpredictably from any known output/input compatibility standards, cannot be expected to work well with other audio equipment or be accompanied by any documentation of the requirements for matching them to other equipment, but when carefully, intuitively, matched to other high end equipment, by the user, can produce excellence beyond standards."

...and I think you're getting close to the positions that have actually been taken in these discussions. It's a whacky audio world you live in, micro. One in which the engineering seems to have gotten a good start, at best, when the equipment is shipped. Then the real work, the experienced audiophile's work of system-buiding, with no guidance, no map from the manufacturer to follow. He's left with trial, error, and his ears and experience to find the source A that optimizes preamp B to optimize amp C to drive speakers D to performance heights that even the component designers couldn't imagine...or at least couldn't be bothered to tell you how to achieve.

You are, by far, the most important link in the chain! More critical to ultimate system performance than the designers of mere pieces of the puzzle! You're almost up their with the artists themselves, turning mere reproduction into music.

Thing is, I don't believe it. I believe there are a few, a very few, high-end designers/manufacturers putting out equipment that truly dances to it's own, non-standard music and requires very careful choices to achieve compatibility. I believe most of them are plug-and-play compatible with other equipment built to industry input and output standards. I believe they don't give you detailed instructions for matching their amps to sources, pres and speakers because they know it is unnecessary, and that the extreme members of the synergy crowd believe it is necessary because it elevates their importance in the process and gives them something to fiddle with.

Tim

 

[zztop7]

$100. or $100,000. ??? Probably the majority are poor choices.

how does someone not make a poor choice when they purchase a cable!

$100. or $100,000. ??? Probably the majority are poor choices.

tomelex - great question.

I use a Manley Laboratories Skipjack. The Skipjack is not a perfect solution, but it helps.

zz [zz is not in the Audio industry, just a buyer for my home].

 

[microstrip]

I am not sorry old boy:

I said: The differences between any of todays reference cables should be undistinguisable, if they are truly designed to deliver a singal from a low impedance to a high impedance with minimal degradation.

There is no flawed logic there, just logic. If you hear a difference between state of the art reference cables costing tens of thousands of dollars, then by gosh someone is not telling the truth. And the someone not telling the truth is the cable industry because the give you no information about what they consider the proper drive and termination characteristics of theier cables or the EMI/RFI capabilities etc. How can you support such an industry with a warning that buyers should be careful to avoid poor choices? So, like you always ask questions....

here is one for you Micro..

how does someone not make a poor choice when they purchase a cable!

It is curious that your posts always need to refer to cables costing tens of thousands of dollars, while my main argument was just about perceived sound quality of cables in systems, independently of price. IMHO, the main reason we support this industry is that it allows us to enjoy more our systems, giving a sound reproduction we prefer.

Again IMHO, the only way of making a good choice is either listening to the cables and/or buying from some that has public proves of having installed great sounding systems and you can trust.

BTW1, your reference to EMI/RFI capabilities just shows you are not talking seriously. How can you measure it in practical audio conditions and correlate it with sound quality? Should we ask an expert to measure the electromagnetic field in our rooms before buying cables?

BTW2, I always ask questions and you are the one who never answers to them directly, most of the time avoiding the real question and ending with a question.

BTW3, I smile when the posts include the words "the truth" and "etc"...

 

[microstrip]

Change this statement to 1) "most AV receivers are built within the same standards and perform predictably, and well, with other equipment, and 2) most high-end amplifiers vary unpredictably from any known output/input compatibility standards, cannot be expected to work well with other audio equipment or be accompanied by any documentation of the requirements for matching them to other equipment, but when carefully, intuitively, matched to other high end equipment, by the user, can produce excellence beyond standards."

...and I think you're getting close to the positions that have actually been taken in these discussions. It's a whacky audio world you live in, micro. One in which the engineering seems to have gotten a good start, at best, when the equipment is shipped. Then the real work, the experienced audiophile's work of system-buiding, with no guidance, no map from the manufacturer to follow. He's left with trial, error, and his ears and experience to find the source A that optimizes preamp B to optimize amp C to drive speakers D to performance heights that even the component designers couldn't imagine...or at least couldn't be bothered to tell you how to achieve.

You are, by far, the most important link in the chain! More critical to ultimate system performance than the designers of mere pieces of the puzzle! You're almost up their with the artists themselves, turning mere reproduction into music.

Thing is, I don't believe it. I believe there are a few, a very few, high-end designers/manufacturers putting out equipment that truly dances to it's own, non-standard music and requires very careful choices to achieve compatibility. I believe most of them are plug-and-play compatible with other equipment built to industry input and output standards. I believe they don't give you detailed instructions for matching their amps to sources, pres and speakers because they know it is unnecessary, and that the extreme members of the synergy crowd believe it is necessary because it elevates their importance in the process and gives them something to fiddle with.

Tim

Tim,
For some one who does not believe you summarize pretty well what you do not believe in, although with some exaggeration -e.g. most brands work well with some other brands, the bad pairings are more an exception than a rule. Surely when you mix more than half a dozen brands in your system thinks become more non predictable. But yes, IMHO it is the price to pay for excellence.

Also most high-end manufacturers will give you private guidance, although for marketing reasons they will not do it in public, to avoid jeopardizing part of their dealer network. High-end is a business, with its positive and negative implications.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,
For some one who does not believe you summarize pretty well what you do not believe in, although with some exaggeration -e.g. most brands work well with some other brands, the bad pairings are more an exception than a rule. Surely when you mix more than half a dozen brands in your system thinks become more non predictable. But yes, IMHO it is the price to pay for excellence.

Also most high-end manufacturers will give you private guidance, although for marketing reasons they will not do it in public, to avoid jeopardizing part of their dealer network. High-end is a business, with its positive and negative implications.

I've observed carefully, but no, I don't believe it. I believe exactly what I said, that a few - very few - high end manufacturers indulge in the design of components with input/output standards outside of the range that will make their equipment operate transparently with other well-designed equipment. And honestly? I don't know if they're brilliant or irresponsible. Perhaps both. What you seem to believe is that there really are no standards, that all the nuances within those tolerances are audible, even down to the difference so small that they are immeasurable, and that the discriminating audiophile must match each component to the next, by ear, to optimize his system, and that any change, even a wire, can destroy the system balance.

We will continue to disagree, but my advice to the believers is buy your equipment from one of the even fewer manufacturers who is open about their incompatibilities, and buy it all from them. Then listen to music.

Tim

 

[mep]

Tim-I'm afraid that you really are misinformed about mixing and matching audio gear and their attendant input/output/sensitivity specifications and how they will interact with each other. If you buy a source, preamp, and power amp from the same manufacturer, chances are great that everything will work perfectly with each other as it should. Some amps have super high sensitivity ratings so that with certain preamps, you can barely turn up the preamp before you are driving the amp to full output. Most preamps aren't designed so that they sound the most transparent at the extreme low-end of the volume pot. Some preamps' output impedance won't match correctly with some amplifiers' input impedance. If you are mixing and matching among SS brands or mixing and matching with SS and tubes, you really need to pay attention to the impedance specifications. For instance, you don't want to hook up a preamp with a super-high output voltage rating that starts putting out volts of output power at a very low level on the volume knob with an amplifier that only needs .75V to reach full output.

And yeah, your right-if you buy an integrated amp or receiver, all of these issues are eliminated. However, it doesn't mean they will achieve the fidelity that some other components are capable of. Sometimes I wonder why some people are on a forum titled "What's Best" when they don't believe there is anything beyond the sound of an integrated amp or receiver. Their sole mission sometimes appears to be that they just here in order to poke their thumb in the eyes of people who do believe that you can achieve greater sound than is available from cheap integrated amps and receivers. Just because some people can't afford something doesn't mean it can't be better than what they have.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-I'm afraid that you really are misinformed about mixing and matching audio gear and their attendant input/output/sensitivity specifications and how they will interact with each other. If you buy a source, preamp, and power amp from the same manufacturer, chances are great that everything will work perfectly with each other as it should. Some amps have super high sensitivity ratings so that with certain preamps, you can barely turn up the preamp before you are driving the amp to full output. Most preamps aren't designed so that they sound the most transparent at the extreme low-end of the volume pot. Some preamps' output impedance won't match correctly with some amplifiers' input impedance. If you are mixing and matching among SS brands or mixing and matching with SS and tubes, you really need to pay attention to the impedance specifications. For instance, you don't want to hook up a preamp with a super-high output voltage rating that starts putting out volts of output power at a very low level on the volume knob with an amplifier that only needs .75V to reach full output.

And yeah, your right-if you buy an integrated amp or receiver, all of these issues are eliminated. However, it doesn't mean they will achieve the fidelity that some other components are capable of. Sometimes I wonder why some people are on a forum titled "What's Best" when they don't believe there is anything beyond the sound of an integrated amp or receiver. Their sole mission sometimes appears to be that they just here in order to poke their thumb in the eyes of people who do believe that you can achieve greater sound than is available from cheap integrated amps and receivers. Just because some people can't afford something doesn't mean it can't be better than what they have.

Well I hope it's not me you're wondering about, because I'm not making that argument, you're projecting it.

P

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This is interesting --

Emotiva XPR-2 – Input impedance – 100K ohms

Krell 402e -- Input impdance – 100k ohms

I'm sure it's just a coincidence, though. I just did a quick Google on impedance matching components and skimmed a couple of articles. Impedance matching electronic components doesn't seem to be considered much of an issue in modern, SS equipment. But that was just a quick skim and I'm here to learn; Mep, can you point me to any sources that could help me become more informed about matching amps to pres and pres to sources?

Tim