When we connect a load to a source we ALWAYS degrade the signal - it is basic electronics. What we can debate is how much and how we degrade it, and its effect in sound quality. And here we go again ...
Cables and the Peter Principle
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When we connect a load to a source we ALWAYS degrade the signal - it is basic electronics. What we can debate is how much and how we degrade it, and its effect in sound quality. And here we go again ...
Riddle me this: The output impedance of every amplifier is different. The input impedance of every speaker is different. The crossover network in every speaker is different. Every speaker cable has its own set of variables with regards to inductance, capacitance, and resistance. Therefore, why would anyone assume that every single speaker cable is going to sound the same with every different combination of amplifier and speakers?
i am absolutely serious... wire is incapable of improving the signal.
exactly, at that point it becomes a matter of what degradation one prefers over another, and i dont see any point in spending much to get there.When we connect a load to a source we ALWAYS degrade the signal - it is basic electronics. What we can debate is how much and how we degrade it, and its effect in sound quality. And here we go again ...
i did not mean to imply that unchanged transmission is possible, but even if it were no speaker known to man could reproduce it with true fidelity. wire is about the last thing i worry about when it comes to sound.
Cables are the last thing I worry about too BUT we are talking about SYSTEMS and as such everything matters.
For anybody perfectly happy with his system's performance, it is unlikely he will find cabling that will make things "better". I'm fairly certain however that finding cables that make it sound worse will be a much easier task.
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No, it really doesn't. There are plenty of things in systems that can vary within specified parameters and still remain inaudible. And given that we're talking about systems for listening to audio, that, by definition, means they don't matter.
Tim
I respectfully disagree. An audio system is both one big electrical circuit that produces an acoustic output that couples with its environment. All noise and distortions add up and have a bearing on final performance whatever the intended use of that performance is. That acoustic output is its reason for being.
Quick example: When I did our dining room I wanted to hide cables for the background music. I wanted soft diffuse sound so I went with Duevel Planets. Cute little buggers that look part sculpture/part standing ashtray (LOL). I wanted a compact integrated I could tuck away with enough juice to run the inefficient little guys so I got a Bel Canto S300 fed by a SONOS zone controller. To connect the amp to the speakers I went to the pro audio shop right outside our village gate and bought a spool of generic wire. I had the contractors run the wire from the amp to the speakers pulling the wire through PVC conduits run under the floor. Horror of horrors, when I came back to test it, the far speaker was a heckuva lot of dBs down in output. I switched speakers and the far position was still down. I went to the rear and reversed the speaker leads to see if it was the amp. Far side still down. I looked behind the console and found everything nice and neat. Uh-oh. The cables were cut at different lengths!
Now I know nobody in his right mind would do this but it does illustrate the kinds of losses cables can have. Cut at the same length, they are BOTH down. Doubling the runs brought them both up. Cables don't matter? Yeah right.
Quick example: When I did our dining room I wanted to hide cables for the background music. I wanted soft diffuse sound so I went with Duevel Planets. Cute little buggers that look part sculpture/part standing ashtray (LOL). I wanted a compact integrated I could tuck away with enough juice to run the inefficient little guys so I got a Bel Canto S300 fed by a SONOS zone controller. To connect the amp to the speakers I went to the pro audio shop right outside our village gate and bought a spool of generic wire. I had the contractors run the wire from the amp to the speakers pulling the wire through PVC conduits run under the floor. Horror of horrors, when I came back to test it, the far speaker was a heckuva lot of dBs down in output. I switched speakers and the far position was still down. I went to the rear and reversed the speaker leads to see if it was the amp. Far side still down. I looked behind the console and found everything nice and neat. Uh-oh. The cables were cut at different lengths!
Now I know nobody in his right mind would do this but it does illustrate the kinds of losses cables can have. Cut at the same length, they are BOTH down. Doubling the runs brought them both up. Cables don't matter? Yeah right.
How far was that run of conduit? How much difference was there in the lengths of those two cables? What was the gauge of that standard wire? Like Nelson Pass said, "short and stout." (of course all micro heard was "silver") Like you said, nobody in his right mind would do this; you exceeded the tolerances within which the differences between those wires would remain inaudible, Jack. We don't disagree at all.
Tim
14 gauge ~20 ft to one and ~12 ft to the other. Well within tolerances for installations Tim. I've participated in installations with far longer runs of almost the same gauge (in-ceilings and on-walls) at 13 albeit using Kimber spools (4VS IIRC). I was too cheap to spring for the tried and tested albeit these aren't horrifically priced either. I figured it is a non critical listening system environment anyway so I went with gener-o spool. I also have no problems with Analysis Plus Blue 14g (another well performing very affordable cable per foot) for in-walls like those I use as rears in our HT. What I did not realise was just how much attenuation can go on for such short distances. So no, wire is not wire. Like anything else there's the good and the bad. I actually wondered at some point if they really used copper! Somewhere out there is a great generic spool cable. I just found a bad one I guess. There will always be people out there who'll want to max out profits at the expense of quality. It doesn't only happen in the high end. Caveat Emptor
You're right, you were well within tolerances. Bad cable. Can't say what was wrong with it, but something for sure. But what were talking about here is not really cable so bad that it drops several db going from 12 ft to 20. What we're - or at least I'm talking about -- is audible differences between good quality cable and boutique cable, within tolerances. Take 6 ft of Kimber and 6 ft of TOTL Audioquest and run them to good speakers. Hear a difference of several db there? Better measure the Audioquest and see what the did to alter the transparency of that boutique cable. Different ain't better.
Tim
Tim
Surely. I heard about the "short and stout" since I was in secondary school, the silver has new for me a decade after. It seems that some people, even now, still do not manage to go over the "short and stout" phase.
How can we hope that some day they will also consider the electro-mechanical and dielectric properties of wires?
Surely. I heard about the "short and stout" since I was in secondary school, the silver has new for me a decade after. It seems that some people, even now, still do not manage to go over the "short and stout" phase.
I also heard the "oxygen-free copper" and how he positioned it as interchangeable with silver. And I do consider the electro-mechanical and dielectric properties of wire. I also consider tolerances. And the fact that those electro-mechanical and dielectric properties can be measured and their tolerances can be tested, and good quality wire can be manufactured, shipped, marked up, retailed, and fall within those tolerances for dollars, not hundreds or thousands of dollars, per foot.
Jack's right of course, in that everything can make a difference. Sometimes it just doesn't. It's a pretty moot discussion for me anyway. My system has a fraction of the wire in it that most do, though it does have two power cables.
Tim
Jack,
In this case I would risk that the wire was damaged when being pulled in the PVC conduits - most of the thin cables must have been broken, increasing the resistance of the cable. Proper 14 AWG (2 square mm for me
is under 10 mohm per meter, it can not produce such level changes (several dBs) in so short runs. But yes, some cables change the tonal balance to a point you can think that was an overall change in level.
(...)My system has a fraction of the wire in it that most do, though it does have two power cables.
Tim
Twenty years ago I owned a system that had over 44 miles of wire and it sounded great!
I have absolutely zero problems when someone says he can't hear the difference. In fact I do openly champion going for the cheaper alternative each and every time. I would not sell a client a mullet system just as I wouldn't build one for myself. We have reputations to protect after all.
What I do have problems with are blanket statements like all cables sound the same. Clearly I got poor cables but those are cables on the open market. That blanket statement is misleading. Bad wire can sink performance. Not every cable on the market is good. So.........Try before you buy. Not everybody has the measurement tools and not everyone that does knows how to interpret the measurements anyway. I wouldn't even know what tests to run! Can't tell by ear? Go with the cheaper one. Easy. If you can hear differences or think you do AND if the more expensive one is what you think is better, ask yourself if the sonic difference is worth the price difference. In fact, if you have to actually think about it and rationalize the whole process, don't buy it. It's probably not for you. If you actually have to call some friends to blind test you, the more it isn't for you.
That brings me to the only other thing that I have problems with and that is the assumption that everybody, in this case audiophiles, are imagining things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there aren't people that actually are. To assume however that every persons falls within the bell curve is just not.......err.... scientific. To call out a stranger for claiming he hears things that statistically shouldn't, is as repugnant to me on logical grounds as it is for that person to shoot back with the your "systems sucks" retort on grounds of plain good manners. He may or may not be hearing things but who are we and in what position are we too judge? Really.
@micro - cables were not damaged. They just sucked. Like I said, I actually wondered if they used copper. In this world where people put poisonous synthetics in milk and plaster of paris in pork buns, fake generic wire wouldn't surprise me at all.
Again, we don't disagree, respectfully or otherwise. I don't think I've ever said all wire sounds alike. I know there is bad wire, not to mention wire that simply is not up to the task of carrying the signal the necessary length. And I don't believe all audiophiles are imagining things either. What I do believe, and here we may get to disagree, is that:
1) It is as wrong to expect expensive boutique wire to outperform simple good quality cables like Belden as it is to believe all wires, regardless of quality, sound the same.
2) Expectation bias is a powerful, ubiquitous force in human perception. Audiophiles are not immune to it. Many of them, in fact, appear to be unusually suceptible to it.
YMMV, etc.
Tim
1) It is as wrong to expect expensive boutique wire to outperform simple good quality cables like Belden as it is to believe all wires, regardless of quality, sound the same.
2) Expectation bias is a powerful, ubiquitous force in human perception. Audiophiles are not immune to it. Many of them, in fact, appear to be unusually suceptible to it.
YMMV, etc.
Tim
Tim,
Can you define what is "boutique wire" and nominate a few brands you consider that manufacture or sell "boutique wire" and those which are not? Perhaps your nice sounding adjectivization can create some bias in many naive readers, but audiophiles are immune to it.
BTW, no wise audiophile will tell you that a cable outperforms another one or brand X outperforms brand Z in absolute terms -but will tell you a cable in a defined system and room outperforms another one in his opinion. Surely others will agree or not.
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Strict agreement with that sentiment, however, would render the story of The Emperor's New Clothes pointless and meaningless. Which would mean you were being disrespectful to the people who do see some point to the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. You would be implying that they are imagining things, seeing something that is not there. Which would be very bad manners.
Strict agreement with that sentiment, however, would render the story of The Emperor's New Clothes pointless and meaningless. Which would mean you were being disrespectful to the people who do see some point to the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. You would be implying that they are imagining things, seeing something that is not there. Which would be very bad manners.
The story of the The Emperor's New Clothes is one the best proofs that cables differences really exist. When one child (or its equivalent in audiophile terms) says that the Emperor cables are not better than zip cord and all competent cables sound the same, the audiophile crowd immediately says it is not true and reports on the quality of their own clothes, even comparing them to those of the emperor
. They will also debate the quality of materials and of their tailors. Perhaps after that they send the child to an audiologist or an otolaryngologist. I hope no one studied english using the Assimil course, otherwise I am sure next post would be "My tailor is rich".
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