Cables and the Peter Principle

[microstrip]

Surely you're not arguing that boutique "high-end" or even the bigger "high-end" manufacturers have "more resources?" Really? If this were true, the best high-end equipment, and the highest prices, would come from Sony, Pioneer and particularly HK International. Well, until Apple or the U.S. government gets into the business . And as if that is not nonsensical enough, "incognito exceptions?" "Main line of argumentation?"

What on earth are you talking about? I'll give you this much, micro; you're entertaining. Where is that ROTFLMAO smiley when you need it most?

Tim

Tim,
Again separating small parts of a sentence to distort its meaning - the key of the sentence was the "target price". But anyway, most of the time specialized manufacturers use more resources than any other to a defined item because the big manufacturers do not want to invest in that defined area anymore. You should study the experiences of high-end involvement of big firms before making absurd conclusions.

And once again you could not resist to insult the poster - I am out.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, you have misunderstood. It's not the key to heaven, it's the key to electrical compatibility and nothing more.

Evidently I've misunderstood much, and I'm awaiting enlightenment. Did you find any independent studies of the impact of these incompatibilities? even any detailed discussion? How about any high-end manufacturers making recommendations for the highest compatibility with their products?

Tim

 

[mep]

Evidently I've misunderstood much, and I'm awaiting enlightenment. Did you find any independent studies of the impact of these incompatibilities? even any detailed discussion? How about any high-end manufacturers making recommendations for the highest compatibility with their products?

Tim

Tim-You love to ask questions and ask others to do your research for you because you aren't willing to put forth any effort. You just want to sit back and ask others to prove your point. I'm not playing. If you ask electronic manufacturer's to make recommendations for the highest compatibility with their products, they are going to recommend using their products. What else would you expect? When David Manley designed his amps to have an input sensitivity of .75v for full output, some people bitched about it because it made a poor match for lots of preamps. Manley's retort was .75v was a studio standard and if you want compatibility, go buy one of his preamps. Who the hell needs "independent studies" to prove electrical laws? I don't even know why we are discussing/arguing this point. Why don't we argue whether or not P=IxE? That would make just as much sense.

 

[IanG-UK]

I'm amazed that, 172 posts in, we don't just identify a few key facts that will determine our cable buying practice:

1 perceived sound quality in own system, compared with incumbent, sighted
2 perceived sound quality in own system, compared with incumbent, unsighted
3 cable measurements and their perceived significance
4 manufacturer's "CV"
5 cost
6 others' perceptions

FWIW, I don't attempt 1 or 2 and I don't understand enough to use 3.

I look at the longevity, judge the strength of experience and absence of marketing bulls**t of the manufacturer under point 4.

And I try to keep cost within around 5% of my total audio budget under point 5.

I try to check out that there are a minimum or zero number of negative review/user comments under point 6 but I ignore positive review/owner comments under point 6 where I interpret these might be flavour of the year reactions.

Then I listen to my music.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-You love to ask questions and ask others to do your research for you because you aren't willing to put forth any effort. You just want to sit back and ask others to prove your point. I'm not playing. If you ask electronic manufacturer's to make recommendations for the highest compatibility with their products, they are going to recommend using their products. What else would you expect? When David Manley designed his amps to have an input sensitivity of .75v for full output, some people bitched about it because it made a poor match for lots of preamps. Manley's retort was .75v was a studio standard and if you want compatibility, go buy one of his preamps. Who the hell needs "independent studies" to prove electrical laws? I don't even know why we are discussing/arguing this point. Why don't we argue whether or not P=IxE? That would make just as much sense.

I know that's the way you see it, mep. We've been here before. The way I see it is someone, and that would be you, is making claims and questioning my experience when I disagree, and offering nothing to back up his claims. I'm not asking you to do my research. I'm asking you to do yours.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There seems to be a belief here that very careful, precise compatibility between the output of one device in a system and the load of the next seems to be the key to heaven. Or have I misunderstood?


Tim

Tim,

you likely know i use darTZeel electronics (amps and preamps) in my system. they can be used with conventional interconnects, but they also feature a propritary interface utilizing the BNC connectors called the 'zeel' interface. the philosophy behind this interface is a 'perfect' 50 ohm matching of input and output. it's claimed that using this interface and properly designed built cables you can use any length up to .5 kilometer and the sound will be the same.

i've personally done no scientific investigation of these claims. but i can state that over the last 7+ plus years of using these electronics with BNC cables that they do perform better than conventional cables. even when the conventional cables are ones that are very much more expensive and in prior expereinces would typically perform better.

Herve Delatraz of darTZeel was a DIY engineer and wrote a few articles for Stereophile before he started the company darTZeel. he wrote 6 installments in the year 2000 about his amplifier project that became his first retail product the NHB-108 amplifier. then in the September 2001 issue of Stereophile he wrote an article about 'signal echo' in interconnects....which eventually led to his implimentation of the 'zeel' interface.

this article is not on-line to access; but i have a hard copy of it. i must admit to not being able to fully grasp all it's concepts personally; but i can certainly hear what 'signal echo' does in conventional interconnects where there is not a perfect impedence match. and it's effect does vary from interconnect design to interconnect design and is affected by length.

i have no agenda to convince anyone of anything about cables. for years i fought the cable battles and did lots of cable comparisons and posted on cable threads. but no more. sure; i have my own opinions but life is too short.

however; i would recommend that interested parties seek out this article and read it, and then listen to the zeel interface compared to any conventional interconnect and see where that leads.

 

[mep]

I know that's the way you see it, mep. We've been here before. The way I see it is someone, and that would be you, is making claims and questioning my experience when I disagree, and offering nothing to back up his claims. I'm not asking you to do my research. I'm asking you to do yours.

Tim

You simply don't understand the difference between making claims and stating facts. Electrical impedance laws are just that-laws. You either match your impedances correctly or you don't. I don't need to prove a damn thing. If you want to run off on a wild goose chase and try to find some evidence that you can mate any preamp with any amplifier, be my guest.

 

[treitz3]

Hello and good afternoon, gentlemen. Lets lighten up the tone a little bit. It's just a discussion after all. Let's strive to make it and keep it a friendly one.

Tom

 

[rbbert]

Too long to quote Mike L.'s entire post again, but more than any single post here this seems to refute the claims of most of the high-end cable industry.

 

[NorthStar]

The main advantage of separates over integrated is that we can change the preamp only instead of the entire component.
So that way we can keep our amp, and save money. ...Or vice versa, on both fronts.

It's fun to 'play & match' with amps and preamps, and as opposed to an integrated we need cables (interconnects).
...So we can improve the sound even further because with an integrated we are restricted by the manufacturer's internal cabling choice.

Methinks that the best is to get the preamp and amp from the same manufacturer and he should also provide which interconnects were used in developing his products. ...Even the loudspeakers that are a good match, and the speaker wires.

But! Like I said it's fun to play on our own and make our own discoveries ourselves.

When an audio designer/manufacturer release an integrated amp (high end), the cabling is already chosen internally, and the impedance between amp and preamp 'should' be a perfect match.

I don't buy the separates theory anymore; except for matching with exceptional loudspeakers (ultra high end) and which needs a lot of juice (current, power for their exceptional loads; impedance, sensitivity and crossover network). Then mate them with electronics from the same audio manufacturer for simplicity of life and reassurance. IMO ...But we're free and it does not have to be that way.

If I was to design high end amps and preamps and loudspeakers I would always provide the interconnects and speaker cables that worked best with my products. ...At least by divulging them.
But, personal exploration from my customers is that extra edge of the unknown. ...And only from it can they find worst and better in life.
And worst and better is a balance between personal preference and optimal working condition of all the components together.

Cables: There are definitely differences at the end of each cable in a soi-disant system (the room is part of that system).
The relevance is in the performance and the finance. ...There are no two ways about it. ...And we don't have to blind ourselves to hear it. If we do it's because things aren't clear like crystal. Soon as we start doubting is when we're in trouble. IMO

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I know this is a cable thread, but Integrated Amps were brought up recently by Mark and Bob, so let me chime in, if I may.

I agree with Bob that an integrated amp should already have the internals of the amp and preamp matched, so there shouldn't be an issue on the technical side of things. Why that was even brought up still amazes me, but then I know we go off-course with seemingly every thread.

For a small to average sized room a good quality (you can read high-end if you want) should work more than adequately when matched with the right speakers, room conditions and the cabling of your choice. Sure, you lose some flexibility, but then ...not all of us need it or are destined to want it. If the end result is pleasing to our ears and we are satisfied then we have reached a goal of some sort. If we aren't satisfied then maybe we need to look at our sources and upgrade them instead. Personally I think that is where the greatest gain can be had anyway.

As far as cables are concerned...yeah, they make a difference (or can) and I subscribe to the general 10-15% rule. Although if something I tried sounded really good I would consider spending more. If it's all just snake oil, then I'll live with it...after all it would be my money and if the effect brings a smile to my face and a pleasing touch to my ears, so be it!

 

[mep]

I only answer these questions for others, as Micro declared himself out in thread 170.
Bolded: of course a cable EMI/RFI can be measured withhout being put in your system.....better EMI/RFI means a better cable....

Underlined: lookee here pardner, i canon be hep it iffin you donna cotton to english so good..... aha aha aha

Care to expand on what you mean when you say "better EMI/RFI means a better cable"? Are you talking about radiated or susceptibility?

 

[mep]

I know this is a cable thread, but Integrated Amps were brought up recently by Mark and Bob, so let me chime in, if I may.

I agree with Bob that an integrated amp should already have the internals of the amp and preamp matched, so there shouldn't be an issue on the technical side of things. Why that was even brought up still amazes me, but then I know we go off-course with seemingly every thread.

John-With regards to me bringing up integrated amps, it was for the purpose of saying they have an advantage over separates in the fact that you don't have a run of ICs between a preamp and a power amp and you know the impedance between the sections of the integrated amp have been optimized. I didn't bring up integrated amps to denigrate them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Too long to quote Mike L.'s entire post again, but more than any single post here this seems to refute the claims of most of the high-end cable industry.

that impression was not my intent. I value highly the effect of top performing cables, and my experience with the 'zeel' interface does not conflict with that perspective. different BNC cables do sound different when used with the zeel interface. Radio Shack BNC cables sound 'ok', but are not in the class of the BNC's that Herve sells. Herve's are quite reasonable from a few hundred for short cables up to around $2000 for an 8 meter. not real cheap but they will better pretty much any conventional cable regardless of price. I had Audience build me some BNC cables which were pretty good, but they were not as good as Herve's for 3 times as much. the Evolution Acoustics BNC's are more expensive than the Audience and are even better than Herve's, and that is mostly what I use.

the bottom line is that within a given geometry cable performance still varies.

and just because the zeel interface is superior to RCA or XLR does not mean that those type cables are not valid or that within those types of cables that performance does not vary.

 

[microstrip]

Care to expand on what you mean when you say "better EMI/RFI means a better cable"? Are you talking about radiated or susceptibility?

This is a dubious affirmation unless you live in a radio station or your equipment has no capability of rejecting RF. There is such a wide type of equipments in audio that we can not have such strict general rules. Even speaker cables can have susceptibility to RF, although this is not an issue with most amplifiers.

 

[microstrip]

I only answer these questions for others, as Micro declared himself out in thread 170.
[

I am out with Tim, not with polite people interested in debating post contents, not posters.

 

[mep]

This is a ridiculous affirmation unless you live in a radio station or your equipment has no capability of rejecting RF. There is such a wide type of equipments in audio that we can not have such strict general rules. Even speaker cables can have susceptibility to RF, although this is not an issue with most amplifiers.

Once upon a time when I lived in Maine and I had a purpose built listening room in my basement, I had a pair of Kimber Cable ICs running from my Counterpoint SA-5.1 to my ARC D-76 amp. The Kimber ICs were not shielded and I was picking up a radio station through the ICs.

 

[microstrip]

that impression was not my intent. (...)

Mike,
But it will be misinterpreted and presented as such. Nice you have reported evidence that even in the extreme case of 50 ohm terminated lines we have differences in sound quality.

 

[microstrip]

Once upon a time when I lived in Maine and I had a purpose built listening room in my basement, I had a pair of Kimber Cable ICs running from my Counterpoint SA-5.1 to my ARC D-76 amp. The Kimber ICs were not shielded and I was picking up a radio station through the ICs.

It can happen. This just shows that in your system you should not use this type of Kimber ICs. Many people use Kimber with great results and have to buy a tuner to listen to radio.

I lived for a long time close to an AM radio station - about 200 meters from the antenna. I could lit a small 6V 30 mA lamp (OK it just got reddish) using a 20 meter antenna, and could listen in a small speaker fitted with a matching transformer using a galena. But never had any interference in my system using Kimber PBJ unshielded cable. The only interference problem I ever had was it an Eminent Technology tonearm and a particular RIAA stage I do not remember the brand anymore that could pick a mix of the BBC world service and a german station in shortwave.

 

[mep]

It can happen. This just shows that in your system you should not use this type of Kimber ICs. Many people use Kimber with great results and have to buy a tuner to listen to radio.

I lived for a long time close to an AM radio station - about 200 meters from the antenna. I could lit a small 6V 30 mA lamp (OK it just got reddish) using a 20 meter antenna, and could listen in a small speaker fitted with a matching transformer using a galena. But never had any interference in my system using Kimber PBJ unshielded cable. The only interference problem I ever had was it an Eminent Technology tonearm and a particular RIAA stage I do not remember the brand anymore that could pick a mix of the BBC world service and a german station in shortwave.

Funny you mention the ET. My system at the time also had an ET-2 mounted on a Sota Star Sapphire table.