Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Lagonda]

Dave “Mcsnare” is a breath of fresh air on this forum. Speaking truths and sharing knowledge. And while I have stated the same previously, several times, the herd seems more receptive when he states it so…..progress!

Sometimes the heard just needs a better sheep-dog !

 

[Lee]

@Mcsnare It’s really nice to have your perspective shared here Dave. Hope all is well!

 

[Carlos269]

Sometimes the heard just needs a better sheep-dog !

Glad to say that I have never had a desire to be a sheepdog for a herd……actually never have had any interest in being part of any herd:

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sometimes the heard just needs a better sheep-dog !

or a supposed apex audiophile with better hearing

 

[Mcsnare]

I'm not disputing that, I have digitally recorded LP's that sound way better than the CD but I also have digital albums that sound as good as the LP. So my preference is not down to liking vinyl distortion and is down to which master sounds best.

Do you have an example of your work that is available on streaming services that we could listen to?

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[Mcsnare]

I have a follow-up question : out of curiosity, have you ever tried playing vinyl through an ADC to a DAC, and if so, do you get the same results (i.e. not "dry" sound)?

I have done that but not for the purpose of comparing a before and after, but to master a previously vinyl-only release for CD, where the master mixes were not obtanable. I should do that again and listen closely for changes.
One thing I noticed post 96K digital capture is that when I used a spectral editor tool to remove pops and clicks from the transfer, I could clearly see that fast trasients (like a small bell being struck) generated a signal up to 48K which is the upper frequency limit of a 96K sample rate. The record that I recorded was clearly seen in the editor program as starting to trail off around 18K and stopped around 20K. This was a record that was recored and mixed to tape, and had been cut for vinyl. I surmised the extra bandwidth of the transients were cartridge/tonarm resonances.

 

[Rexp]

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Thanks, yes I was stalking you earlier today, love the stuff you did with SRV!

 

[Mcsnare]

Thanks, yes I was stalking you earlier today, love the stuff you did with SRV!

I liked working on that record, Stevie was a kind and beautiful soul, but I don't think it sounds all that great. I could only do so much cause I came in at the end to record a few lead vocals, horns, then do the mix. It was recorded to a Mitsubishi X-800 which was a poor sounding early digital format - 32 tracks on one inch tape. And the producer Jim Gaines and Stevie wanted to mix on a Solid State Logic console which although very popular were not my favorite soundong console. The tracks were so harmonically thin and lacking any warming resonances, that I used a bunch of older Neve modules to run certain tracks through to try and inject some life back in. I also mixed to DAT and 1/2 30 IPS tape with NNR. The tape was used to master from.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The noiseless nature of digital is one thing that can contribute to it sounding dry, IMO.

Very interesting, Dave! We greatly appreciate the benefit of your experience here!

 

[hopkins]

I have done that but not for the purpose of comparing a before and after, but to master a previously vinyl-only release for CD, where the master mixes were not obtanable. I should do that again and listen closely for changes.

Yes, it would be interesting to compare, at least for you to check your hypothesis that it is the vinyl cutting process that adds some warmth.

 

[GroovySauce]

The final thing is uncorrelated, low level, stereo noise heard as a wooshing sound, that happens from a heated cutting stylus etching its way through nitrocellulose. It has a darker spectral content (no high hiss) because the playback inverse RIAA brings the top down. Combined with that is the playback on vinyl grooves, but with a little more highs. A cartridge stylus rubbing the groove in the silent parts (or sometimes during very quiet passages) is where it’s most audible, but it’s there the whole time and it creates some of the 3D-ness. If the playing and pressing are amazing and your analog rig is super quiet, you’ll only hear the cutting woosh. I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.
Some of these effects and how they are portrayed are no doubt part of the playback chain. With a great cut and a great vinyl playback rig, for me, there’s nothing better.

Thank you so much for describing this! I've been wondering what that noise is. It's not distracting to me. I find that when listening to a digital file vs vinyl that when the wooshing is more present it is more 3D-holographic generally.

 

[Audiohertz2]

It sounds different than the digital file that is all. You prefer it which is OK But fidelity to the master is lost. You can get similar effects with software too as well as with equalizers.

Err , not quite , software always sound electronic just different Digital and everything in audio playback is different to the master hence why there is distortion ..

Loudspeakers create the biggest deviation from masters ..


Regards

 

[Al M.]

The noiseless nature of digital is one thing that can contribute to it sounding dry, IMO.

I guess the keyword here is "can". You could also see it the other way. A system on which digital sounds dry, but vinyl does not, may simply have shortcomings in inherent "dryness" that are revealed by the digital but covered up by the added noise in vinyl.

It will also depend on the quality of the digital playback of course, e.g., if its low-level linearity and resolution is good enough to properly reproduce instrument resonances, hall ambience and decay trails. It will also depend on the rest of the chain; for example dry sounding SS amplification may be helped by vinyl over digital.

My digital playback has good low-level linearity and resolution, and the sound from my new speakers is denser and harmonically richer than from my old ones. A friend also commented that the new speakers sounded less dry than the old ones and richer. They don’t pleasantly "color" the sound, they are simply better, as in truer to the harmonic structure of (unamplified) real music.

All in all, I can't complain about "dry" digital playback. It's just that everything needs to be right.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Al are you digital only ..?

 

[thedudeabides]

Digital sounds distinctly different from the actual performance. So given this fact along with its lack of fine resolution, it cannot be truer to the source.

How do you know that the digital is distinctly different? Did you attend the actual performance and then play that specific CD to make the comparison? If not, what is the basis for this claim?

 

[Al M.]

Al are you digital only ..?

That's correct. But I hear vinyl in friends' systems all the time. I love it, but I don't miss it at home.

There was a time when as a digital-only guy I still preferred vinyl sound wise, but that's not the case anymore.

 

[Joe Whip]

I have about 600 lps which I no longer play. My new pre doesn’t even have a phono stage, if I need to play vinyl, I will get the new Schiit phono stage which I have heard in a very nice system that sounds very good and at a good price.

 

[hopkins]

I guess the keyword here is "can". You could also see it the other way. A system on which digital sounds dry, but vinyl does not, may simply have shortcomings in inherent "dryness" that are revealed by the digital but covered up by the added noise in vinyl.

It will also depend on the quality of the digital playback of course, e.g., if its low-level linearity and resolution is good enough to properly reproduce instrument resonances, hall ambience and decay trails. It will also depend on the rest of the chain; for example dry sounding SS amplification may be helped by vinyl over digital.

My digital playback has good low-level linearity and resolution, and the sound from my new speakers is denser and harmonically richer than from my old ones. A friend also commented that the new speakers sounded less dry than the old ones and richer. They don’t pleasantly "color" the sound, they are simply better, as in truer to the harmonic structure of (unamplified) real music.

All in all, I can't complain about "dry" digital playback. It's just that everything needs to be right.

When "dry" is understood as "crisp", it can be said to be a good thing.

 

[Al M.]

When "dry" is understood as "crisp", it can be said to be a good thing.

Agreed, but I don't think this is what it was about.

 

[bonzo75]

Al are you digital only ..?

Digital only and text description only - two issues I remember off the bat