Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Republicoftexas69]

I hear better than all of you, I have been involved in more critical tests than all of you, and I have more experience in all fields of live sound and audio reproduction than all of you. 52 years of experience at the highest levels.

I have no need or desire to explain myself or prove myself to any of you.

I just vomited in my mouth.

 

[Joe Whip]

I know some very smart folks that can’t hear you unless you are right in front of their faces, so much for the intellect argument.

 

[Rexp]

I can’t prove it scientifically but I am a mastering engineer and have A/B’d the send to the lathe and the cut in real time. Trust me, it adds and changes things in a pleasing way.

I'm not disputing that, I have digitally recorded LP's that sound way better than the CD but I also have digital albums that sound as good as the LP. So my preference is not down to liking vinyl distortion and is down to which master sounds best.

Do you have an example of your work that is available on streaming services that we could listen to?

 

[SoundMann]

Please post for us the scientific incontrovertible evidence of this.

There is nothing keeping you from researching this for yourself.

(I wish we could put a monetary wager on this, as I'm quite confident that IQ and hearing ability are independent variables.)

Since our brain is responsible for deciphering what our "acoustical detectors" pick up, this would be an illogical position and wager.

 

[treitz3]

Hello and good evening to the WBF. There is now a member who is enjoying an extended involuntary vacation. Please let this show as an example of how NOT to post on this forum.

The ban will last a period of one month, in which case, upon return? We can only hope the message got across. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Tom

 

[Republicoftexas69]

There is nothing keeping you from researching this for yourself.



Since our brain is responsible for deciphering what our "acoustical detectors" pick up, this would be an illogical position and wager.

So there is no scientific data and the smartest man on the planet cannot support his argument. God bless the person who put the ignore feature on this forum.

 

[Lagonda]

Hello and good evening to the WBF. There is now a member who is enjoying an extended involuntary vacation. Please let this show as an example of how NOT to post on this forum.

The ban will last a period of one month, in which case, upon return? We can only hope the message got across. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Tom

Hello guys, can you still see my posts ? Hello ! Hello !

 

[Rexp]

Hello guys, can you still see my posts ? Hello ! Hello !

Yes as long as you don't claim to be smart you're fine.

 

[Lagonda]

Yes as long as you don't claim to smart you're fine.

No chance of that, i pride myself of being a little dimwitted, it helps with the girls i prefer dating ! And the audio gear i prefer, come to think of it !

 

[Mcsnare]

You are basically saying the same thing as most recording and mastering engineers, so there is consistency here.

How exactly would you describe does vinyl add and change things in a more pleasant way, in terms of sonic result?

Different lathes, electronics, and cutter heads do different things. Mine is a weird Scully/Westrex one-off but I’ve heard plenty of Neumanns as well.
Generally, the bottom end takes on a slightly more robust, more resonant character. But it also becomes focused in a hard to describe way.
On my system, the mids seem more dynamic and alive sounding. Image width is very slightly brought in except for the top end which gets wider. Whatever is happening, thr cut sounds a little more 3D. Individual, meaty transients like a drum groove get very slightly compressed in the mids, as the highs get very slightly smeared but with on added, almost silkier, sparkly, type of enhancement.
The cleaner and more tweaked and maintained the cutting system is determines the amounts but it’s always there even if gets subtle with some very tweaked setups.
Even a direct to disc recording has more added harmonics (distortion) than the source. I figure that’s the sparkly thing on the highs.

The final thing is uncorrelated, low level, stereo noise heard as a wooshing sound, that happens from a heated cutting stylus etching its way through nitrocellulose. It has a darker spectral content (no high hiss) because the playback inverse RIAA brings the top down. Combined with that is the playback on vinyl grooves, but with a little more highs. A cartridge stylus rubbing the groove in the silent parts (or sometimes during very quiet passages) is where it’s most audible, but it’s there the whole time and it creates some of the 3D-ness. If the playing and pressing are amazing and your analog rig is super quiet, you’ll only hear the cutting woosh. I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.
Some of these effects and how they are portrayed are no doubt part of the playback chain. With a great cut and a great vinyl playback rig, for me, there’s nothing better.
And whether the cut was done from a tape or a file is of far less importance to the sound than you’d think. Ok the tape cut can sound great if the mixes were great but I’ve heard too many amazing sounding records that were cut from files. And you can do stuff in digital to get a better cut that you can’t do cutting off tape.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Different lathes, electronics, and cutter heads do different things. Mine is a weird Scully/Westrex one-off but I’ve heard plenty of Neumanns as well.
Generally, the bottom end takes on a slightly more robust, more resonant character. But it also becomes focused in a hard to describe way.
On my system, the mids seem more dynamic and alive sounding. Image width is very slightly brought in except for the top end which gets wider. Whatever is happening, thr cut sounds a little more 3D. Individual, meaty transients like a drum groove get very slightly compressed in the mids, as the highs get very slightly smeared but with on added, almost silkier, sparkly, type of enhancement.
The cleaner and more tweaked and maintained the cutting system is determines the amounts but it’s always there even if gets subtle with some very tweaked setups.
Even a direct to disc recording has more added harmonics (distortion) than the source. I figure that’s the sparkly thing on the highs.

The final thing is uncorrelated, low level, stereo noise heard as a wooshing sound, that happens from a heated cutting stylus etching its way through nitrocellulose. It has a darker spectral content (no high hiss) because the playback inverse RIAA brings the top down. Combined with that is the playback on vinyl grooves, but with a little more highs. A cartridge stylus rubbing the groove in the silent parts (or sometimes during very quiet passages) is where it’s most audible, but it’s there the whole time and it creates some of the 3D-ness. If the playing and pressing are amazing and your analog rig is super quiet, you’ll only hear the cutting woosh. I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.
Some of these effects and how they are portrayed are no doubt part of the playback chain. With a great cut and a great vinyl playback rig, for me, there’s nothing better.
And whether the cut was done from a tape or a file is of far less importance to the sound than you’d think. Ok the tape cut can sound great if the mixes were great but I’ve heard too many amazing sounding records that were cut from files. And you can do stuff in digital to get a better cut that you can’t do cutting off tape.

Many thanks for the fascinating perspectives Mcsnare, it’s great to get something in this with some genuine mind altering substance. Nice.

 

[Al M.]

Different lathes, electronics, and cutter heads do different things. Mine is a weird Scully/Westrex one-off but I’ve heard plenty of Neumanns as well.
Generally, the bottom end takes on a slightly more robust, more resonant character. But it also becomes focused in a hard to describe way.
On my system, the mids seem more dynamic and alive sounding. Image width is very slightly brought in except for the top end which gets wider. Whatever is happening, thr cut sounds a little more 3D. Individual, meaty transients like a drum groove get very slightly compressed in the mids, as the highs get very slightly smeared but with on added, almost silkier, sparkly, type of enhancement.
The cleaner and more tweaked and maintained the cutting system is determines the amounts but it’s always there even if gets subtle with some very tweaked setups.
Even a direct to disc recording has more added harmonics (distortion) than the source. I figure that’s the sparkly thing on the highs.

The final thing is uncorrelated, low level, stereo noise heard as a wooshing sound, that happens from a heated cutting stylus etching its way through nitrocellulose. It has a darker spectral content (no high hiss) because the playback inverse RIAA brings the top down. Combined with that is the playback on vinyl grooves, but with a little more highs. A cartridge stylus rubbing the groove in the silent parts (or sometimes during very quiet passages) is where it’s most audible, but it’s there the whole time and it creates some of the 3D-ness. If the playing and pressing are amazing and your analog rig is super quiet, you’ll only hear the cutting woosh. I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.
Some of these effects and how they are portrayed are no doubt part of the playback chain. With a great cut and a great vinyl playback rig, for me, there’s nothing better.
And whether the cut was done from a tape or a file is of far less importance to the sound than you’d think. Ok the tape cut can sound great if the mixes were great but I’ve heard too many amazing sounding records that were cut from files. And you can do stuff in digital to get a better cut that you can’t do cutting off tape.

Thanks for these descriptions, fascinating!

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Different lathes, electronics, and cutter heads do different things. Mine is a weird Scully/Westrex one-off but I’ve heard plenty of Neumanns as well.
Generally, the bottom end takes on a slightly more robust, more resonant character. But it also becomes focused in a hard to describe way.
On my system, the mids seem more dynamic and alive sounding. Image width is very slightly brought in except for the top end which gets wider. Whatever is happening, thr cut sounds a little more 3D. Individual, meaty transients like a drum groove get very slightly compressed in the mids, as the highs get very slightly smeared but with on added, almost silkier, sparkly, type of enhancement.
The cleaner and more tweaked and maintained the cutting system is determines the amounts but it’s always there even if gets subtle with some very tweaked setups.
Even a direct to disc recording has more added harmonics (distortion) than the source. I figure that’s the sparkly thing on the highs.

The final thing is uncorrelated, low level, stereo noise heard as a wooshing sound, that happens from a heated cutting stylus etching its way through nitrocellulose. It has a darker spectral content (no high hiss) because the playback inverse RIAA brings the top down. Combined with that is the playback on vinyl grooves, but with a little more highs. A cartridge stylus rubbing the groove in the silent parts (or sometimes during very quiet passages) is where it’s most audible, but it’s there the whole time and it creates some of the 3D-ness. If the playing and pressing are amazing and your analog rig is super quiet, you’ll only hear the cutting woosh. I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.
Some of these effects and how they are portrayed are no doubt part of the playback chain. With a great cut and a great vinyl playback rig, for me, there’s nothing better.
And whether the cut was done from a tape or a file is of far less importance to the sound than you’d think. Ok the tape cut can sound great if the mixes were great but I’ve heard too many amazing sounding records that were cut from files. And you can do stuff in digital to get a better cut that you can’t do cutting off tape.

I learned more in this one post of your's Dave than the many strings by that other fellow. Thank you for contributing and imparting some knowledge on us.

 

[hopkins]

I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.

Do you have any experience with modern digital releases of older material from the "analog era"? For those, isn't some tape (or lacquer) noise inevitably present, and if so, does it achieve the same effect that you have noticed with current production?

Edit: I forget which recording engineer was quoted above (from a video) explaining that even some 1960s masters (perhaps from Blue Note? I forget), were "pristine" and had no noise...

 

[Mcsnare]

Do you have any experience with modern digital releases of older material from the "analog era"? For those, isn't some tape (or lacquer) noise inevitably present, and if so, does it achieve the same effect that you have noticed with current production?

A digital release of a project mixed to tape will only have the tape noise (which can be low enough to be undetectable) and any slight added noise from the mastering gear, if it’s done using analog boxes. A lot of today’s mastering work is done entirely in the computer.
The vinyl release is the only format that contains the cutting stylus on nitrocellulose noise.

In my experience tape sonics don’t benefit from noise. When I recorded and mixed prior to shifting into mastering, it was common for me to use Dolby SR at a tape speed of 15 IPS and NO elevated level. SR has about 15-20 db more noise reduction than Dolby A. Low record level preserves leading edge transients but is too noisy without noise reduction. Standard level is +3 or 3 db above 185 nWb/m which is 0 db. Most folks back in the day went +6 and then +9 NNR (no noise reduction) when the high output tapes were introduced. While it’s quiet, high level really kills the transients. Probably the best compromise for NNR is 30ips 1/2” at +3 or so.
DSOTM was mixed to 15IPS +3 1/4” Dolby A - I’ve held the tape boxes. A lot of 70’s rock had Dolby A on the multitrack - Elton, Jethro Tull, what have you.
Tape noise is not beneficial I think because it’s a full flavored noise including high frequency hiss. Lacquer noise is spectrally very dark and thereby more subtle.
The L/R phase relationship of it makes things sound wider. Put on a well pressed record with quiet surfaces and listen to the lead in groove. You’ll hear what I’m taking about. Tape noise doesn’t do that. BTW vinyl noise (accumulation of noise added from platting and the actual PVC of the record) sounds more like tape hiss.
That being said, I do have a file of tape noise that I very occasionally add in to a digital mix. When it’s just below the level of audibility, it adds a certain density and increased sense of detail. If it’s too loud, perception of detail is lowered.
The noiseless nature of digital is one thing that can contribute to it sounding dry, IMO.

 

[hopkins]

That being said, I do have a file of tape noise that I very occasionally add in to a digital mix. When it’s just below the level of audibility, it adds a certain density and increased sense of detail. If it’s too loud, perception of detail is lowered.
The noiseless nature of digital is one thing that can contribute to it sounding dry, IMO.

Thanks. That's an interesting perspective.

 

[hopkins]

The vinyl release is the only format that contains the cutting stylus on nitrocellulose noise

I have a follow-up question : out of curiosity, have you ever tried playing vinyl through an ADC to a DAC, and if so, do you get the same results (i.e. not "dry" sound)?

 

[Audiohertz2]

Different lathes, electronics, and cutter heads do different things. Mine is a weird Scully/Westrex one-off but I’ve heard plenty of Neumanns as well.
Generally, the bottom end takes on a slightly more robust, more resonant character. But it also becomes focused in a hard to describe way.
On my system, the mids seem more dynamic and alive sounding. Image width is very slightly brought in except for the top end which gets wider. Whatever is happening, thr cut sounds a little more 3D. Individual, meaty transients like a drum groove get very slightly compressed in the mids, as the highs get very slightly smeared but with on added, almost silkier, sparkly, type of enhancement.
The cleaner and more tweaked and maintained the cutting system is determines the amounts but it’s always there even if gets subtle with some very tweaked setups.
Even a direct to disc recording has more added harmonics (distortion) than the source. I figure that’s the sparkly thing on the highs.

The final thing is uncorrelated, low level, stereo noise heard as a wooshing sound, that happens from a heated cutting stylus etching its way through nitrocellulose. It has a darker spectral content (no high hiss) because the playback inverse RIAA brings the top down. Combined with that is the playback on vinyl grooves, but with a little more highs. A cartridge stylus rubbing the groove in the silent parts (or sometimes during very quiet passages) is where it’s most audible, but it’s there the whole time and it creates some of the 3D-ness. If the playing and pressing are amazing and your analog rig is super quiet, you’ll only hear the cutting woosh. I’ve added tape noise way down low in a mix and it does almost the same thing. A subtle sense of density and image space.
Some of these effects and how they are portrayed are no doubt part of the playback chain. With a great cut and a great vinyl playback rig, for me, there’s nothing better.
And whether the cut was done from a tape or a file is of far less importance to the sound than you’d think. Ok the tape cut can sound great if the mixes were great but I’ve heard too many amazing sounding records that were cut from files. And you can do stuff in digital to get a better cut that you can’t do cutting off tape.

Basically aligns with most of what i have experienced also , another neat one is to record to tape from a digital file , the density from the tape makes for a more natural sound on playback ..

Regards

 

[Joe Whip]

It sounds different than the digital file that is all. You prefer it which is OK But fidelity to the master is lost. You can get similar effects with software too as well as with equalizers.

 

[Carlos269]

Dave “Mcsnare” is a breath of fresh air on this forum. Speaking truths and sharing knowledge. And while I have stated the same previously, several times, the herd seems more receptive when he states it so…..progress!