Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?
- Thread starter ScottK
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I am about to leave for the day, and i have the christmas tradition to start up my Oppo and leave it running with loud music while i am gone, Van Morrison "Live in San Francisco " started playing and now i have a hard time leaving ! An album i rarely hear because i don't have it on vinyl ! Digital is great too !
No, it isn't.
Who needs a horse when you have a Lagonda.
You need the horse for all the times the Lagonda is broken !
Digital vs analog is a very complex issue. Having been a full-time audio engineer since 1980, I'm very experienced with both formats.
Playback is the dominant part in these kinds of discussions simply because that's what audiophiles are familiar with, but I think the "back story" of what happened in the production is more important to understanding digital vs analog in home playback.
There is the question of what format was used for the recording. Some are a mix of digital and analog. For example, there was a period of time when it was common practice to record to multitrack tape and then mix to a stereo digital format, and the reverse is true. Since the very early 2000s, there has been virtually NO tape involved. In fact, since about 2010, once the signal leaves the microphone preamp and any other analog processing and goes to the A/D, it NEVER sees analog until someone hears a D/A (DAC) convert it.
All things being equal (and they never are) an all analog recording should sound better on vinyl than a CD or stream. But then a very well done master into a good A/D could easily sound more true to source than a poorly done vinyl cut. And while an all digital recording will sound truest to source and artistic intent by playing it digitally, it could easily sound "better" played off vinyl.
For the early 2000s to the present-day recordings, I can absolutely confirm that streaming or CD playback is closest (if not dead on ) to what the artist intends for the audience to hear. Small sonic differences in DACs are mostly inconsequential compared to the change in sound via the vinyl version. Many times, the mixes and mastering are different from the digital version. So it's really comparing apples to oranges.
I much prefer to listen to vinyl at home because I love the colorations from the cutting process. It simply sounds more engaging to me - even if I know that the digital is more true to source.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't really believe there is a magic dac or digital chain of components that will sound exactly like the same music on vinyl.
Playback is the dominant part in these kinds of discussions simply because that's what audiophiles are familiar with, but I think the "back story" of what happened in the production is more important to understanding digital vs analog in home playback.
There is the question of what format was used for the recording. Some are a mix of digital and analog. For example, there was a period of time when it was common practice to record to multitrack tape and then mix to a stereo digital format, and the reverse is true. Since the very early 2000s, there has been virtually NO tape involved. In fact, since about 2010, once the signal leaves the microphone preamp and any other analog processing and goes to the A/D, it NEVER sees analog until someone hears a D/A (DAC) convert it.
All things being equal (and they never are) an all analog recording should sound better on vinyl than a CD or stream. But then a very well done master into a good A/D could easily sound more true to source than a poorly done vinyl cut. And while an all digital recording will sound truest to source and artistic intent by playing it digitally, it could easily sound "better" played off vinyl.
For the early 2000s to the present-day recordings, I can absolutely confirm that streaming or CD playback is closest (if not dead on ) to what the artist intends for the audience to hear. Small sonic differences in DACs are mostly inconsequential compared to the change in sound via the vinyl version. Many times, the mixes and mastering are different from the digital version. So it's really comparing apples to oranges.
I much prefer to listen to vinyl at home because I love the colorations from the cutting process. It simply sounds more engaging to me - even if I know that the digital is more true to source.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't really believe there is a magic dac or digital chain of components that will sound exactly like the same music on vinyl.
Digital sounds distinctly different from the actual performance. So given this fact along with its lack of fine resolution, it cannot be truer to the source.
Lack of fine resolution, huh. So far you must have heard really bad digital then.
(I know, folks, don't feed...)
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but how do you know a digital recording sounds different from an actual performance? Were you there in the studio?
I would also take issue with saying digital lacks resolution. I can assure you that the instant playback of an analog or stereo multitrack in the studio sounds markedly different than what went into it. And playback form a good digital recording rig with good converters sounds virtually indistinguishable from what was just heard from the performance. In several ways, however, back in my recording days, I enjoyed what analog did to the signal going into it, but it is not nearly as accurate as digital.
In this very thread have I documented the exhaustive tests that I participated in. Did you read it?
I have heard the best digital currently available. It doesn't even come close to the best analog playback!
Not entirely true. Plenty of cutters continued to use tape with preview heads.
Most digital releases sound nothing like the source, assuming the source is a real person playing an acoustic instrument.
The reason you prefer vinyl is likely the vinyl master filtered out the digital distortion embedded in the digital master.
In sucky setups, probably. In mine resolution is wonderful.
In recent weeks, my 18-year-old daughter has taken an interest in my audio system. After I introduced her to various albums available on CD/SACD, streaming, and vinyl, she (like every other person who has listened to my setup) expressed a preference for the sound of vinyl in our home.
In the context of determining the superior option, during the last two Munich High-End events, we saw top-tier digital equipment (such as WADEX, MSB Select 2, Lampizator Horizon, among others) in different rooms. despite the presence of such advanced digital setups, turntables were included in each room. Surprisingly, in every comparison—be it WADEX versus Kronos discovery in the Gobel room, Rockport with CH electronics using AF 1 turntable, Kaiser Kwaro + AF 1, Marten Mingus Room (MSB vs. AF3), and even in Nagra + Willson room —I found myself preferring the sound of the turntable over their respective DACs or digital counterparts. it might be a coincidence but I wouldn't bat on it.
When I made a comparison between my friend's Clearaudio Statement turntable equipped with the TT1 arm and his exceptional digital setup consisting of an Aurender A20SE with an MBL Reference 1611f DAC or 1621a CD transport, the difference in sound quality between the analog rig and the digital setup was monumental. It felt like comparing a Tyrannosaurus rex to a zebra in a fight—a vast and incomparable contrast.
In the context of determining the superior option, during the last two Munich High-End events, we saw top-tier digital equipment (such as WADEX, MSB Select 2, Lampizator Horizon, among others) in different rooms. despite the presence of such advanced digital setups, turntables were included in each room. Surprisingly, in every comparison—be it WADEX versus Kronos discovery in the Gobel room, Rockport with CH electronics using AF 1 turntable, Kaiser Kwaro + AF 1, Marten Mingus Room (MSB vs. AF3), and even in Nagra + Willson room —I found myself preferring the sound of the turntable over their respective DACs or digital counterparts. it might be a coincidence but I wouldn't bat on it.
When I made a comparison between my friend's Clearaudio Statement turntable equipped with the TT1 arm and his exceptional digital setup consisting of an Aurender A20SE with an MBL Reference 1611f DAC or 1621a CD transport, the difference in sound quality between the analog rig and the digital setup was monumental. It felt like comparing a Tyrannosaurus rex to a zebra in a fight—a vast and incomparable contrast.
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1. I would agree, but for different reasons. Within the constraints of stereo reproduction and current tech in recording, it's almost (but not completely) impossible to capture a musical performance and have it credibly fool the listener into "being there" or the performers being in the listening room. The format has little or nothing to do with this.
2. Vinyl doesn't filter out digital distortion. I prefer the sound of vinyl because it adds it's own distortion, some of which is complimentary to my ear.
I don't know what you heard, or what you compared to what.
But even I do not believe this to be true.
During my n studio experiences, the digital playback sounds identical to the live mic feed. With my new pre amp I am hearing incredible amounts of detail in all of my digital recordings along with wonderful tone.
Yeah I used to think the same as you but as I also like some digital playback, I discounted that theory.
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