You might demo the “switch x”. Do a search on WBF.... whats the easiest and cheapest but still most effective way to test? I really don`t feel like spending 6k for an Ansuz or Melco switch to find out it does nothing... is there an easier way (like the ifi lan isliencer - does that not do the same thing - reduce noise?)... just being curious...
Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?
- Thread starter ScottK
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I would be just as surprised as you are if I were to read this. There are lots of different solutions addressing noise but I have not come across this one yet.
i respectfully asked for you to explain yourself about your claim. you have completely sidestepped my request. and ignored the same question from @treitz3 too.In general the burden of proof should be with the person who claims something to be, that was not me.
For the sake of discussion:
No, I do not think the performance can be improved without changing the signal. The signal is what carries the sound that we hear. If the "environment it's travelling on" for instance adds noise, that will change an analog signal, and it will be degraded. With digital signals, not necessarily so.
The claim being made was that the signal going into a network could be improved. That sounds implausible (to put it nicely). And I would very much like to hear an explanation of how network components can understand the signals being carried and improve upon them. It doesn't make any sense.
Personally I think this is pretty far down the list of things I would worry about if I wanted to improve the sound in my system.
I have a pretty solid background in how both local networks and the internet works (it has at one point been my full time job for several years). But I know audiophiles easily disregard that type of competence when discussing this subject, so not sure how relevant you find it to be.
Again I don't necessarily want to go too far down this route as a WBF sponsor, as I know there are other sponsors who sell audiophile network gear. But it's one thing to claim that it reduces noise, it's another to claim it actually improves the signal beyond the original quality of the source. That is what I reacted to initially in this thread.
as a manufacturer who is promoting your products and casting negativity toward other products, i cannot take you, your products, or your claims seriously. why make this claim (post #2838) if you cannot back it up? it's a serious thing to say. the burden of proof is on you.
>>I was just pointing out that the posts claiming the signal could actually get BETTER if sent through fancy network components was false.<<<
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That's not been my personal experience. I added each of these components and each time the sound quality took a step forward.
1. Ethernet switch.
2. Upgraded ethernet cable to Synergistic.
3. Upgraded the router to latest AT&T product.
4. Added a noise-reducing Sortz plug-gin to the AT&T router.
Surely no one believes that wires and switches add information. What the good ones do is subtract less than the bad ones.
If things sound better after switch and wire improvements (and they do at my house), it’s because the stuff that was replaced was obfuscating the information more than the new stuff.
Your mileage SHOULD NOT vary. Lower transmission loss = better signal for ALL.
If things sound better after switch and wire improvements (and they do at my house), it’s because the stuff that was replaced was obfuscating the information more than the new stuff.
Your mileage SHOULD NOT vary. Lower transmission loss = better signal for ALL.
@Lee
@Mike Lavigne
I suspect / hope we are misunderstanding each other. What I am saying is this:
Let's say you start out with a perfect signal, perfectly representing the source material, let's call this 100%.
Then one claim is that normal network components can degrade the signal, so in the end it's of lower quality, let's say 90%. While if you employ audiophile network components, the degradation is reduced, so say the signal is now 95%. This is not what I am contesting.
Another claim is that when using audiophile components, the signal can become better than it was to begin with. Let's say 110%. This is the one I am contesting.
Are any of you suggesting that this second claim is true?
@Mike Lavigne
I suspect / hope we are misunderstanding each other. What I am saying is this:
Let's say you start out with a perfect signal, perfectly representing the source material, let's call this 100%.
Then one claim is that normal network components can degrade the signal, so in the end it's of lower quality, let's say 90%. While if you employ audiophile network components, the degradation is reduced, so say the signal is now 95%. This is not what I am contesting.
Another claim is that when using audiophile components, the signal can become better than it was to begin with. Let's say 110%. This is the one I am contesting.
Are any of you suggesting that this second claim is true?
we are interested in understanding.
i think you need to explain under which circumstances, if ever, 100% of any media gets transferred to the reproduction in any format. so we have context for your 95% number. maybe that never happens, or maybe you claim it does happen.....for you?
for conversation's sake; if network tweaks improve common data transfer from 90% accurate to 95% accurate, what is your approach to making this better?
ok.
no one claims that. some products do claim to add a preferred 'effect'.....but none claim to actually add information. some products do 'look ahead' and find errors and then correct those errors during playback. but they don't claim to add information.
which things are you calling 'false'??? be specific......claiming more than 100% of the original data. explaining this part is important for our understanding what you are actually saying.
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There are a few hundred WBF members and Taiko users that have added the Taiko Switch, router, DC power distributor for these devices, with a MONEY BACK, FULL REFUND OF PURCHASE OFFERING. I don't think there has been one return.
Take a look at the Taiko forum as the sonic results from adding these devices, has the users literally gushing over the sonic results. It's not a few people it's 100+ users around the world with various systems/networks.
Reduce noise in the incoming signal produces noticeable upticks in SQ. YMMV but to all of these users they are getting the same mileage.
Very good.
This is besides the point / a different discussion. I was talking in theoreticals to help convey the point about "improving" vs "not degrading". We are already struggling to understand each other, so I suggest we don't go down that road, at least not at the same time.
It may help to read the post I was originally referring to:
Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?
Bit perfect this week will absolutely be different next week ..! :) In a strict sense, "bit perfectness" is very easy to check. My DAC, but others have this feature as well, has a build-in "bit perfect" check. You can verify using short samples that a source is bit-perfect or not. See here...
www.whatsbestforum.com
It contains some interesting claims about 1 and 0 being different in audio as opposed to in the IT world, and also that it is possible to clean and refine the ones and zeroes. Those are both examples of false claims.
He also adds that the signal can be accurate (I assume as in the ones and zeroes being similar to the original), but still be less refined, whatever that means.
This is not how any of this works.
A state of a bit can only be 1 or 0. There are only two states, that is literally what digital means. They are not like sugar. They can not be impure. They do not need cleaning. And they cannot become any more clean that they were to begin with.
The only way to come up with this, is by making it up. Why one would like to do that, I don't know.
Does audiophile network components that reduce noise and subsequently reduce degradation of the signal exist? That may be, but they don't work by cleaning or refining (improving) the bits.
So, if you read the post you just replied to, this is not what I am contesting.
Reducing noise is not the same as improving the individual bits from the source itself. This is what the original post I replied to claimed was happening.
Ok. I never nor do I think most people think that you can improve the digital signal. I guess if that was stated I glossed over it as that's impossible to regenerate what you already have lost.
It's reducing noise from various sources in the overall system architecture that have an effect on the incoming signal that from my and many others experiences results in big upticks in SQ that we most definitely hear.
I definitely don't understand the electronics behind it all. I am not a EE. But I do know that when I have inserted the Taiko switch and then the router/dcd there was a massive uptick in SQ.
I understand that the claim I was replying to was so weird that when I replied to it, it was natural for others to think I was talking about something else. My apologies for confusing the whole thread, that was not my intention.
I guess not that many beyond myself read the full contents of the post I replied to.
i do now understand what you were referring to, which was a narrow technical comment in another post. but how would a reader know that? the reader is operating in a general context. and when i asked for a more complete explanation, you merely deflected, which frustrated me and you seemed to be evading me.Very good.
This is besides the point / a different discussion. I was talking in theoreticals to help convey the point about "improving" vs "not degrading". We are already struggling to understand each other, so I suggest we don't go down that road, at least not at the same time.
It may help to read the post I was originally referring to:
Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?
Bit perfect this week will absolutely be different next week ..! :) In a strict sense, "bit perfectness" is very easy to check. My DAC, but others have this feature as well, has a build-in "bit perfect" check. You can verify using short samples that a source is bit-perfect or not. See here...
It contains some interesting claims about 1 and 0 being different in audio as opposed to in the IT world, and also that it is possible to clean and refine the ones and zeroes. Those are both examples of false claims.
He also adds that the signal can be accurate (I assume as in the ones and zeroes being similar to the original), but still be less refined, whatever that means.
This is not how any of this works.
A state of a bit can only be 1 or 0. There are only two states, that is literally what digital means. They are not like sugar. They can not be impure. They do not need cleaning. And they cannot become any more clean that they were to begin with.
The only way to come up with this, is by making it up. Why one would like to do that, I don't know.
Does audiophile network components that reduce noise and subsequently reduce degradation of the signal exist? That may be, but they don't work by cleaning or refining (improving) the bits.
i might suggest that when you post general phrases that need to be applied narrowly in a forum thread, especially a finer technical matter, then you have a responsibility to provide context. either respond to that post so it's copied, or be very specific as to what you are commenting on.
in any case, glad we do now understand. have a nice day!
I deflected because I was unsure how to "prove" that you can't improve a digital signal beyond the original, as the claim didn't make any sense to begin with.
I agree that I should have quoted a smaller part of the original post and have been more specific about what I was contesting. I'm sorry for causing confusion.
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but there are some who do claim that you can improve the digital signal beyond the original - not through hardware, but software:
remastero - Your DAC reimagined
www.remastero.com
Never tried it, never will, but it's out there.
With all the sw/ai advancements I am sure through simulations A/I would be able to estimate and simulate what might be lost and regenerate it. Just a random thoughtI don't want to add fuel to the fire, but there are some who do claim that you can improve the digital signal beyond the original - not through hardware, but software:
remastero - Your DAC reimagined
Never tried it, never will, but it's out there.
I think you have to define "signal". I am very convinced the devices in my prior reply are lowering noise and improving sound quality. I have replicated this across my upstairs system and those of friends as well.
With all the sw/ai advancements I am sure through simulations A/I would be able to estimate and simulate what might be lost and regenerate it. Just a random thought
Must be hundreds of fake analog apps floating around.
Returning to the topic of creating local digital copies. Frames is a more apt term to examine than bits in the home listening environment. dBPoweramp actually has an option to interpolate unrecoverable errors* to create a more seamless listening experience than the most strict interpretation of what your chosen optical drive is capable of reading off a CD.
*Interpolate removes possible clicks by not using audio returned for bad sections, many drive implement self interpolation.
… well, I still don’t technically understand how a digital signal/package consisting of 0s and 1s can be degraded - from what i understand it either arrives at the bridge/dac fully or not at all… but not at x% of 100… anyhow, if this is so I would like to rephrase the original queston (being egoistic here, as i’m still figuring out whether to invest in streaming or a new CDP) into
”Can streaming get to CDP sound and at what price?”
… as the signal the CDP sends is obviously not dramatically degraded through ethernet traffic…
Cheers - can’t wait till my turntable comes back from service… falling into all stupid ideas in absence of vinyl…
”Can streaming get to CDP sound and at what price?”
… as the signal the CDP sends is obviously not dramatically degraded through ethernet traffic…
Cheers - can’t wait till my turntable comes back from service… falling into all stupid ideas in absence of vinyl…
Please start a new topic with this general subject.
There are a lot of highly qualified individuals on WBF who intend to help without engaging on a regular basis.
Streaming is probably the less likely given what could be divined thus far.
So I'll provide a half answer. CDP (transport) are highly dependent on a symmetrical/complementary design existing in the DAC/pre following. And following them... a fun second system is more likely than inserting anything into your present set up(s).
Follow up quarter answer: $$$ DAC using ASIO out of whatever and into a set of $$$ powered speakers. Go full in on youtube videos and a streaming service trial for easy relaxed enjoyment.
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