Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

Here is a more recent video from Hans B. He suggest that the problem is not errors in the digital signal, but rather contamination in the analog signal that carries the digital signal.
@Rumpole I hadn't seen this video. Thanks. It is interesting to me that the Muon Pro reduced jitter and phase noise. I had assumed that it was reducing common mode and differential mode noise since Alpha Audio had measured various passive filters to graph the differences with and without the filter. But as he mentioned, you don't need to know exactly how it works to hear that it does. The Muon Pro does take between 120 and 200 hours to fully settle in, so to hear the full effect takes some time. Nevertheless, one hears the benefits within 30 hours or so.

He also mentioned that the Grimm MU1 is relatively immune to the use of an upstream switch. Always good to have an informed opinion, but I will eventually try a powered switch anyway. Folks who use a variety of switches and the Muon Pro think that the Muon Pro still makes a contribution therefore they use both.

While I don't like playing with networks, a lot of this stuff is plug-n-play now. The Grimm was very easy to connect to Roon and the network. The Muon Pro is, of course, even easier to setup. The switches seem just as easy to setup.
 
I purposefully went between streamed and stored on a drive files.

Really, I could not say one was better than the other

Although not my system, my one direct comparison of streaming vs CD came to essentially the same conclusion - see post #2817
 
When I'm streaming the full album/CD from Qobuz, it seems like the tracks should be the same digital files as on the original CD, but perhaps not.

This is too complex a subject to expand on here simply to make clear any streamed file has exceedingly high chances of differing from the physical release you have on hand. Of which there might be 100's of distinct releases and 1000's of unique versions of a single track for [country] alone. Digital distribution was not a simply accomplished act that allowed great amounts of transparency in 1989. You may be surprised at the current status.

Per Qobuz, the most they can do is request(!) a new file be uploaded to meet their customer expectation level. Issuing party decides what they wish to distribute to each and every commercial entity. Some commodities are highly unstable. Others saw one mastering, one low sales physical release, the same party have uploaded as a file remaining as true to the original release as possible.
 
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who is more aligned to digital than myself?

A 3 year old that can expertly operate a consumer digital device within 10 minutes of being handed one for the first time. Any 20 y/o with enough sense to forgo chasing sarcastic Californication of vinyl new popular releases. Exactly the audience I spelled out as having entered the world after digital everything was unavoidable.

what does 'align closely to digital' mean to you? or......how would most people define 'align closely to digital'?

Context mattered. The context of quote above response to you within the same message was easily assignable.

For simplicity sake I'll leave it as a listener only attempting to gain expertise in digital. Someone attuned to changes happening among their peers as they jointly encounter events that will shape their path. My use of blowhards at remove from those able to straddle the crossroads was intentional.

Most people on the internet would define any statement as fuel to spark argument. :p We both are fully aware in the real world mature adults contribute the lions share to what defines enjoyable youthful encounters. My comment was on the framework lacking completion of this timeworn custom. In the manner it was expected to occur. If not where it was expected to occur.

Last month I encountered a 20 something so distracted by a digital anomaly on a streaming service they were pulling people aside in a public place to see if they could hear it. I considered projecting this experience into "The Young Audiophile's" subforum. Care to guess why I didn't?
 
Or B) are they removing noise that is present in the original data, aka your CD or digital file?

If the answer is B, then I am at a loss, as I do not understand how these devices can improve upon the inherent sound quality of the original data.
You are probably thinking of something else -- but if not: the filter used by your DAC does just that -- reduces noise contained in the incoming signal. In other words, yes, we do use upchain devices & s/w to correct possible irregularities in the signal. Likewise with "reclockers".
 
Here is a good explanation about noise and the challenges of digital audio:


It explains things in the context of USB signals, but most of it applies to other connections as well.

I have already posted this somewhere else on this forum, but I thought it could be useful here.
 
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Here is a more recent video from Hans B. He suggest that the problem is not errors in the digital signal, but rather contamination in the analog signal that carries the digital signal.

Not a "bombshell" as he claims.See my previous post.
Moreover, network "noise"is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
For the sake of argument consider any file streamed has a very high likelihood of not being the same exact track on your CD. Of not having gone through the final processing/mastering steps for commercial CD production. Of unknown quality preparation or delivery method to streaming provider ... ...

Not entirely clear what you mean here. The mastering that is sent to a streaming provider my be different than what you find on a CD, but it seems like you imply that it has not been properly mastered at all, and/or has gone through a somehow lesser or cheaper mastering process than the the track that is on the CD. This is typically not the case.

If anything, the version optimized for streaming may even have higher dynamic range:


EDIT:
Here's a bit more technical / detailed explanation:
 
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Signal = The digital data as it was stored in its original form either on the CD or file or wherever you have it, currently being transferred over the network.

The key question is A) are your devices lowering noise that is generated from other devices in your house and/or external sources like from the power grid etc? Or B) are they removing noise that is present in the original data, aka your CD or digital file?

If the answer is A, then hopefully you will agree that the best you can hope for even theoretically, is that the signal remains untouched = Not degraded, but also not improved. It can however be improved when compared to another setup. But not improved when compared to the original source data.

If the answer is B, then I am at a loss, as I do not understand how these devices can improve upon the inherent sound quality of the original data.
The actual answer is C….they are removing and/or not adding noise caused by actually obtaining, transporting and playing the file.

Let’s say you start with both a flawed and a ‘perfect’ file. In either case, obtaining (reading a disc or delivery by internet) then moving the files across a network adds noise in a variety of different physical forms. In a network the data stream is regenerated multiple times, so first thing, there’s no such thing as the ‘original’. The original may be converted to a series of voltage based polarity switches, modulated by time, it may be converted to radio waves, modulated by time, light waves modulated by time Etc. At every stage, noise is added. The flawed file becomes more flawed and the perfect file becomes less perfect. When you play both, both have the potential to sound better, because the noise that was added by the entire replay process can be reduced or removed to a greater or lesser degree depending on the network design.
So how do you improve the original file? Each time the file is converted and regenerated it takes on the physical attributes of what does the conversion. If for example you transmit a file from a router using a 100ppm accurate oscillator (clock) the file includes a certain statistical timing error rate given by the oscillator. If you then buffer the file then retransmit it using a 3ppb accurate oscillator, you have essentially rebuilt both the voltage layer and the timing layer of the file. You have statistically a much lower timing error rate. The file is no longer the original…its a new version, maybe in the same or a different form; light, or radio frequency or voltage.
Again if you obtain the original file from a router, the voltage layer of that file is built using the router’s $7 switch mode power supply. If you then passed that file through a built-for-audio retimer/switch powered by a high quality low impedance linear power supply, your original file now has less noise, courtesy of the noise reduction circuitry, more accurate/faster polarity switches (higher quality square waves) thanks to the low noise, low impedance supply and a far more accurate time base, thanks to a better oscillator with better timing stats and less PS noise. .
If at each step of the process you improve the specification of the physical layer used to regenerate the file, you improve the physical quality of the file. A file with perfect physical quality i.e no noise, sounds better than a file with lots of noise.
There are lots of areas that can be improved. I’ve mentioned timing, by virtue of the oscillators used. There are power supplies, that can have less noise and lower impedances. EMI can be avoided and removed. Cables can screen better, components and connectors can be vibrated less. Network traffic can be reduced, latency can be reduced, the need for error correction can be reduced, the list goes on
The bottom line is that a digital file that has less deviations of any sort from the ideal physical layer specification sounds better. Those deviations make absolutely no difference in an IT world. It’s only when you convert the file to a series of sound waves and evaluate them subjectively in the brain that you hear the characteristics that these imperfections impart.
Most likely those imperfections impair the brain‘s ability to differentiate very fine differences, meaning that a. it’s working a lot harder to understand and interpret what’s going on and b. Some subtleties and details are not heard at all.
The bit pattern of the file doesn’t need to change, it just needs to have its inherent physical attributes improved. IT doesn’t give a damn about such things, but IT isn’t trying to interpret a series of resulting sound waves to impart musical sense, and meaning. The easier and more effortlessly the brain can do that job the more you’ll enjoy the music.
IT works just as well on a noisy file as it does on a perfect file, so if you apply IT related standards to audio files you end up with a file that’s as good as necessary but no better. Due to audio’s extra steps of conversion to sound waves and subjective interpretation by the brain, noise with and within the files matters as it has an impact on perceived sound quality. That’s the difference between processing files for IT and files for Audio. Audio is far more demanding of physical layer properties and attributes.
 
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The actual answer is C….they are removing and/or not adding noise caused by actually obtaining, transporting and playing the file.

Let’s say you start with both a flawed and a ‘perfect’ file. In either case, obtaining (reading a disc or delivery by internet) then moving the files across a network adds noise in a variety of different physical forms. In a network the data stream is regenerated multiple times, so first thing, there’s no such thing as the ‘original’. The original may be converted to a series of voltage based polarity switches, modulated by time, it may be converted to radio waves, modulated by time, light waves modulated by time Etc. At every stage, noise is added. The flawed file becomes more flawed and the perfect file becomes less perfect. When you play both, both have the potential to sound better, because the noise that was added by the entire replay process can be reduced or removed to a greater or lesser degree depending on the network design.
So how do you improve the original file? Each time the file is converted and regenerated it takes on the physical attributes of what does the conversion. If for example you transmit a file from a router using a 100ppm accurate oscillator (clock) the file includes a certain statistical timing error rate given by the oscillator. If you then buffer the file then retransmit it using a 3ppb accurate oscillator, you have essentially rebuilt both the voltage layer and the timing layer of the file. You have statistically a much lower timing error rate. The file is no longer the original…its a new version, maybe in the same or a different form; light, or radio frequency or voltage.
Again if you obtain the original file from a router, the voltage layer of that file is built using the router’s $7 switch mode power supply. If you then passed that file through a built-for-audio retimer/switch powered by a high quality low impedance linear power supply, your original file now has less noise, courtesy of the noise reduction circuitry, more accurate/faster polarity switches (higher quality square waves) thanks to the low noise, low impedance supply and a far more accurate time base, thanks to a better oscillator with better timing stats and less PS noise. .
If at each step of the process you improve the specification of the physical layer used to regenerate the file, you improve the physical quality of the file. A file with perfect physical quality i.e no noise, sounds better than a file with lots of noise.
There are lots of areas that can be improved. I’ve mentioned timing, by virtue of the oscillators used. There are power supplies, that can have less noise and lower impedances. EMI can be avoided and removed. Cables can screen better, components and connectors can be vibrated less. Network traffic can be reduced, latency can be reduced, the need for error correction can be reduced, the list goes on
The bottom line is that a digital file that has less deviations of any sort from the ideal physical layer specification sounds better. Those deviations make absolutely no difference in an IT world. It’s only when you convert the file to a series of sound waves and evaluate them subjectively in the brain that you hear the characteristics that these imperfections impart.
Most likely those imperfections impair the brain‘s ability to differentiate very fine differences, meaning that a. it’s working a lot harder to understand and interpret what’s going on and b. Some subtleties and details are not heard at all.
The bit pattern of the file doesn’t need to change, it just needs to have its inherent physical attributes improved. IT doesn’t give a damn about such things, but IT isn’t trying to interpret a series of resulting sound waves to impart musical sense, and meaning. The easier and more effortlessly the brain can do that job the more you’ll enjoy the music.
IT works just as well on a noisy file as it does on a perfect file, so if you apply IT related standards to audio files you end up with a file that’s as good as necessary but no better. Due to audio’s extra steps of conversion to sound waves and subjective interpretation by the brain, noise with and within the files matters as it has an impact on perceived sound quality. That’s the difference between processing files for IT and files for Audio. Audio is far more demanding of physical layer properties and attributes.

Again, absolutely everything in this post is wrong and made up. Can you please share references to your source(s) of these claims?

Yes, noise can be picked up and transmitted through cables and affect the analog part of your streamer or DAC, but the file itself is not changed and it does not contain noise.
 
The actual answer is C….they are removing and/or not adding noise caused by actually obtaining, transporting and playing the file.

Let’s say you start with both a flawed and a ‘perfect’ file. In either case, obtaining (reading a disc or delivery by internet) then moving the files across a network adds noise in a variety of different physical forms. In a network the data stream is regenerated multiple times, so first thing, there’s no such thing as the ‘original’. The original may be converted to a series of voltage based polarity switches, modulated by time, it may be converted to radio waves, modulated by time, light waves modulated by time Etc. At every stage, noise is added. The flawed file becomes more flawed and the perfect file becomes less perfect. When you play both, both have the potential to sound better, because the noise that was added by the entire replay process can be reduced or removed to a greater or lesser degree depending on the network design.
So how do you improve the original file? Each time the file is converted and regenerated it takes on the physical attributes of what does the conversion. If for example you transmit a file from a router using a 100ppm accurate oscillator (clock) the file includes a certain statistical timing error rate given by the oscillator. If you then buffer the file then retransmit it using a 3ppb accurate oscillator, you have essentially rebuilt both the voltage layer and the timing layer of the file. You have statistically a much lower timing error rate. The file is no longer the original…its a new version, maybe in the same or a different form; light, or radio frequency or voltage.
Again if you obtain the original file from a router, the voltage layer of that file is built using the router’s $7 switch mode power supply. If you then passed that file through a built-for-audio retimer/switch powered by a high quality low impedance linear power supply, your original file now has less noise, courtesy of the noise reduction circuitry, more accurate/faster polarity switches (higher quality square waves) thanks to the low noise, low impedance supply and a far more accurate time base, thanks to a better oscillator with better timing stats and less PS noise. .
If at each step of the process you improve the specification of the physical layer used to regenerate the file, you improve the physical quality of the file. A file with perfect physical quality i.e no noise, sounds better than a file with lots of noise.
There are lots of areas that can be improved. I’ve mentioned timing, by virtue of the oscillators used. There are power supplies, that can have less noise and lower impedances. EMI can be avoided and removed. Cables can screen better, components and connectors can be vibrated less. Network traffic can be reduced, latency can be reduced, the need for error correction can be reduced, the list goes on
The bottom line is that a digital file that has less deviations of any sort from the ideal physical layer specification sounds better. Those deviations make absolutely no difference in an IT world. It’s only when you convert the file to a series of sound waves and evaluate them subjectively in the brain that you hear the characteristics that these imperfections impart.
Most likely those imperfections impair the brain‘s ability to differentiate very fine differences, meaning that a. it’s working a lot harder to understand and interpret what’s going on and b. Some subtleties and details are not heard at all.
The bit pattern of the file doesn’t need to change, it just needs to have its inherent physical attributes improved. IT doesn’t give a damn about such things, but IT isn’t trying to interpret a series of resulting sound waves to impart musical sense, and meaning. The easier and more effortlessly the brain can do that job the more you’ll enjoy the music.
IT works just as well on a noisy file as it does on a perfect file, so if you apply IT related standards to audio files you end up with a file that’s as good as necessary but no better. Due to audio’s extra steps of conversion to sound waves and subjective interpretation by the brain, noise with and within the files matters as it has an impact on perceived sound quality. That’s the difference between processing files for IT and files for Audio. Audio is far more demanding of physical layer properties and attributes.
Well I do prefer the 'sound' of mobile data over home fibre so anything is possible.
 
For those of you who attend shows how often do you come across rooms spinning CDs, and when you do what players?
I can’t remember the last show I was at where I heard a CD played. Seems that streaming with the occasional record ( Nordost demos use a lot of records) is the norm. I always have to chuckle when the internet stumbles or goes down and the vendor doesn’t have a backup.
 
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Although not my system, my one direct comparison of streaming vs CD came to essentially the same conclusion - see post #2817
In general. . . When I have the CD, it is typically a little better sounding than the stream, assuming similar bit rate and master.
 
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Not entirely clear what you mean here. The mastering that is sent to a streaming provider my be different than what you find on a CD, but it seems like you imply that it has not been properly mastered at all, and/or has gone through a somehow lesser or cheaper mastering process than the the track that is on the CD. This is typically not the case.

I made a hypothetical comment on a completely blind/deaf third party claim. NO albums or tracks were explicitly mentioned. Perhaps attempts to claim authenticity from that basis are misguided from the start. There are plenty of poor recordings, even more bad - provided to streaming company - masterings, and thousands of new entries daily that may qualify as both.

Since I and skinnyfla restricted ourselves to Qobuz. I went on to provide awareness there is a facility to report any issues found with any file or set of files. Developments in this quarter are directly tied to the US Qobuz team who saw them through to international implementation. Until this point a laissez-faire attitude could be found many places, but very exceedingly rarely sound quality. I will defer on commenting how wretchedly US catalog licensed Rock, Pop, Jazz, Country, etc. were recorded in direct comparison to Eurocentric acoustic genres Qobuz was known for curating up till this point in their company history. To this I'll add the expressed commitment towards developing internal program(s) constantly scanning their catalog(s) that have brought considerable changes to search capability, existence of multiple as well as multiple poorer quality files, and a more pleasant overall experience.

If anything, the version optimized for streaming may even have higher dynamic range:

EDIT:
Here's a bit more technical / detailed explanation:
https://www.soundstagesolo.com/index.php/features/274-the-new-standard-that-killed-the-loudness-war

At this point I'm going to suggest you as an accredited industry member directly contact wherever you deem the most applicable Qobuz office is located for the purpose of defining a comprehensive up to date statement. Instead of relying on farsighted individual comments with no verification possible or limited in scope press reports. I will make timely refusal to prime you with known high profile examples, corresponding dates, and their respective currency or other market divider. No cherry picked samples, no three letter acronyms or four letter words, no leading or trailing evidence that may not even be accessible in your country or related to your interests.

tl;dr : Can but won't. Too much too much. I attempted reply where digital basics were being lost to overtly expressed hardware associations. Lots of details expanding into divesting oneself lots of technical data to make practical experiment of, as opposed to fiscal outlay, decisions.
 
I can’t remember the last show I was at where I heard a CD played. Seems that streaming with the occasional record ( Nordost demos use a lot of records) is the norm. I always have to chuckle when the internet stumbles or goes down and the vendor doesn’t have a backup.

At T.H.E. Show in SoCal 2023 I heard two rooms where CD was played. One of them was the PranaFidelity room, where I bought my new speakers:


The CD playback, tape and vinyl all sounded excellent. No streaming.
 
Well I do prefer the 'sound' of mobile data over home fibre so anything is possible.
Indeed! I can refer you to threads 135 pages long (probably more now) on how to set up a fibre optic link for audio. Like everything in audio there’s wrong ways, right ways and best ways
 
I made a hypothetical comment on a completely blind/deaf third party claim. NO albums or tracks were explicitly mentioned. Perhaps attempts to claim authenticity from that basis are misguided from the start. There are plenty of poor recordings, even more bad - provided to streaming company - masterings, and thousands of new entries daily that may qualify as both.

Since I and skinnyfla restricted ourselves to Qobuz. I went on to provide awareness there is a facility to report any issues found with any file or set of files. Developments in this quarter are directly tied to the US Qobuz team who saw them through to international implementation. Until this point a laissez-faire attitude could be found many places, but very exceedingly rarely sound quality. I will defer on commenting how wretchedly US catalog licensed Rock, Pop, Jazz, Country, etc. were recorded in direct comparison to Eurocentric acoustic genres Qobuz was known for curating up till this point in their company history. To this I'll add the expressed commitment towards developing internal program(s) constantly scanning their catalog(s) that have brought considerable changes to search capability, existence of multiple as well as multiple poorer quality files, and a more pleasant overall experience.



At this point I'm going to suggest you as an accredited industry member directly contact wherever you deem the most applicable Qobuz office is located for the purpose of defining a comprehensive up to date statement. Instead of relying on farsighted individual comments with no verification possible or limited in scope press reports. I will make timely refusal to prime you with known high profile examples, corresponding dates, and their respective currency or other market divider. No cherry picked samples, no three letter acronyms or four letter words, no leading or trailing evidence that may not even be accessible in your country or related to your interests.

tl;dr : Can but won't. Too much too much. I attempted reply where digital basics were being lost to overtly expressed hardware associations. Lots of details expanding into divesting oneself lots of technical data to make practical experiment of, as opposed to fiscal outlay, decisions.

I struggle a bit to get your point here. My point was that generally, mastering quality isn't inherently worse on streaming services as opposed to CD. This doesn't mean there aren't plenty of examples of poorly mastered recordings (on both CD and streaming).
 
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I struggle a bit to get your point here. My point was that generally, mastering quality isn't inherently worse on streaming services as opposed to CD. This doesn't mean there aren't plenty of examples of poorly mastered recordings (on both CD and streaming).

Is this a personal statement or a professional, and thus provable with evidence unavailable to consumers, technical analysis of exact mastering used across a reasonably wide swathe of music. If the latter is claimed you are quite welcome to share with the high level of membership here and face suitable critique of your findings.

I have no further comment beyond registering thanks as I believe we have mutual accommodation the reasonable ideas and where slight improvements have arrived.
 
At T.H.E. Show in SoCal 2023 I heard two rooms where CD was played. One of them was the PranaFidelity room, where I bought my new speakers:


The CD playback, tape and vinyl all sounded excellent. No streaming.
Good to hear!
 

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