Denying all the new found information about streaming, based on out of data IT knowledge does nothing to advance and promote hi-fi and is to a large degree what is holding back digital audio to the point its quality rarely exceeds that of a similar system based on analog.
@Blackmorec - taking all your experience into account - do you think a simple streaming setup - ripped CDs as WAV streamed to a bridge via ethernet… no filter, no switch, no special storage/server… just a perfect rip sent to a bridge - can rival a dedicated CD player? Thats what was originally stated when streaming came out… that the perfect rip as WAV is also a perfect file and due to no more mechanical processes while playing via transport the stream is already superior… meaning it already surpasses CDP quality in this simple setup. I get all the research that leads to further knowledge and consequently improvement - but the hearing was the same before… so do all improvements bring a even higher level still and make streaming far superior to CD? Just curious on people’s findings - as I am still deciding which road to take for digital… cheers
… true - it‘s very basic and I have invested about 10 times the money in analog… and I am very satisfied with the results… that‘s why I‘m getting on everyone’s nerves asking stupid questions and trying to find out which road to take to bring digital to level…
Denying all the new found information about streaming, based on out of data IT knowledge does nothing to advance and promote hi-fi and is to a large degree what is holding back digital audio to the point its quality rarely exceeds that of a similar system based on analog.
What newfound information? From practically the start of digital people found improvements by using "lower noise" components. There is nothing new here and it will never end because you cannot get to "zero noise".
@skinnyfla - In a different thread you mentioned your analogue gear - Brinkman etc.- but I don't recall reading what digital gear you presently have. My apologies if I missed the posting of it, can you state/re-state it?
@skinnyfla - In a different thread you mentioned your analogue gear - Brinkman etc.- but I don't recall reading what digital gear you presently have. My apologies if I missed the posting of it, can you state/re-state it?
... yeah - it`s very basic... I use an LG CD - ROM to rip CDs via dBPoweramp to lossless WAV, save it on my Imac and run files with Roon as software - from there via ethernet to a usual Fritzbox and from there via ethernet to musicroom, where I have a socket for internet/ethernet... so basically thats where I pick up the signal with a mediocre ethernet cable from audioquest and run it into an Auralic Aries G1... from there it goes to the McIntosh C52 where I use the onboard DAC... not much love or effort put into it and I keep thinking whether to improve the streaming chain or just let it be and buy a decent CDP... especially as I play vinyl 80% of the time... cheers
@skinnyfla - In a different thread you mentioned your analogue gear - Brinkman etc.- but I don't recall reading what digital gear you presently have. My apologies if I missed the posting of it, can you state/re-state it?
… true - it‘s very basic and I have invested about 10 times the money in analog… and I am very satisfied with the results… that‘s why I‘m getting on everyone’s nerves asking stupid questions and trying to find out which road to take to bring digital to level…
I’ve also invested a lot in my vinyl rig, and it sounds superior to my digital in most cases, but at the same time I do enjoy local files and streaming, and my setup is more or less simple.
So, my advice to you: get a decent server like Aurender N20, get 2 WiFi routers, in my case they are both Asustek, power them with linear PSs (Plixir or similar). Put one of them in normal mode and another in bridge mode, so the second router is connected to the first one via wifi. Connect your server to the second router and enjoy digital. It won’t be on the analog level, but it will be very close
I used both test sites - I'm getting packet loss of between 1 to 4% after running three tests. Should I be concerned about the lost packets for streaming audio quality? They report the results as "Good" for streaming video.
Edit: tested again around 7 pm local time, and I'm getting 10 to 15% packet loss. I think I'll need to buy the digital files and store them on my own server.
Large amounts of back end (ISP and industrial) changes in the last year may be impactful here.
It is worthwhile to mention that the pieces of hardware used to run these tests may not have up to date drivers and/or firmware. Of similar importance is a look through settings menus. This includes your modem/router(s(s)). Then restart the devices.
Phone using wifi/cellular or PC using wifi/cable is a variable that should match the one feeding your streaming connection.
Apologies if you have handled all of this and packet loss is still occurring on an optimized setup.
It is worthwhile to mention that the piece of hardware used to run these tests may not have up to date drivers and/or firmware. Of similar importance is a look through settings menus. Then restart the device.
Phone using wifi/cellular or PC using wifi/cable is a variable that should match the one feeding your streaming connection.
Apologies if you have handled all of this and packet loss is still occurring on an optimized setup.
I'm running the tests on a Linux workstation connected by ethernet cable to a MikroTik hAP ac3 router, and I also have my streamer connected by ethernet cable to the MikroTik hAP ac3. My rural location has very limited celluar and broadband access. I get internet from a local company that transmits wireless from a tower to a local transmitter, and then wireless to a dish outside my house, so it's possible that this the best I can get. Most of the time, the packet loss is around 1 to 2%. The 15% loss seems to be an outlier.
@Blackmorec - taking all your experience into account - do you think a simple streaming setup - ripped CDs as WAV streamed to a bridge via ethernet… no filter, no switch, no special storage/server… just a perfect rip sent to a bridge - can rival a dedicated CD player? Thats what was originally stated when streaming came out… that the perfect rip as WAV is also a perfect file and due to no more mechanical processes while playing via transport the stream is already superior… meaning it already surpasses CDP quality in this simple setup. I get all the research that leads to further knowledge and consequently improvement - but the hearing was the same before… so do all improvements bring an even higher level still and make streaming far superior to CD? Just curious on people’s findings - as I am still deciding which road to take for digital… cheers
There‘s no way for me to predict. It would very much depend on the quality of the various components employed and how they’re set up.
What I can say is that if you start with the CDP and Streaming sounding about equal, streaming gives you far more opportunity to upgrade its performance to surpass the CDP.
The nice thing about streaming is that improvements are extremely scalable. Spend a few $$ carefully and you’ll get a surprising uplift in quality. Spend more $$$ and that uplift can be truly jaw dropping.
I'm running the tests on a Linux workstation connected by ethernet cable to a MikroTik hAP ac3 router, and I also have my streamer connected by ethernet cable to the MikroTik hAP ac3. My rural location has very limited celluar and broadband access. I get internet from a local company that transmits wireless from a tower to a local transmitter, and then wireless to a dish outside my house, so it's possible that this the best I can get. Most of the time, the packet loss is around 1 to 2%. The 15% loss seems to be an outlier.
Renting space from layers of contractors.
How far have you gone looking at data routing backwards to location of streaming server? Pings to that geographic area? Activity is a good way to promote awareness.
Massive physical shutdown and infrastructure upgrade in my area is scheduled to last anywhere from multiple hours to over a day. Power might be impacted as well a feeling tells me. Downside of offering full home integration is potential of full home and mobile service outage. The upside is expectation of detailed real time insights and monitoring of network functions.
That is SO true. We’ve seen some huge improvements recently in the replay side. I imagine that similar levels of improvement are also available on the recording side. Hopefully someone, somewhere is giving it some attention.
, get 2 WiFi routers, in my case they are both Asustek, power them with linear PSs (Plixir or similar). Put one of them in normal mode and another in bridge mode, so the second router is connected to the first one via wifi. Connect your server to the second router and enjoy digital. It won’t be on the analog level, but it will be very close
Had never thought about a second router! If the connection between the second router and the streamer is wired (copper ethernet), I'm assuming the benefit of lower noise is preserved by its separation from the first router (for non-hifi duties).
Good question. IMHO these measurements are just good to diagnose gross faults or network problems , not to rank or quantify possible audio quality. However, since long they are checked by teenagers for online real time gaming, much more exigent than stereo streaming in this aspect.
Latency depends on data path to the chosen server - so on path length and structure. For example, if we add a VPN we can expect a different latency, It is why the Taiko people "forbid" it on their server.
as an audiophile friend pointed out, these tests tell you about the ISP's delivery performance, they don't tell you anything about bottlenecks, etc. occurring in the home network.
That doesn't mean the tests aren't valid and helpful, but if your ISP has decent service, you still need to pay attention to the home network challenges.
Thanks Rhapsody. I fully agree that YMMV, indeed YMWV, according to the status of the current network set-up you use.
My point in posting all this is simply to let people know that they should on no account ignore their network if they are serious about getting the best sound from a digital streaming system. If we look at Taiko Audio as an example, Emil and his team have done a remarkable job at finding and removing sources of noise in streaming systems. And they and their customers have been rewarded with some huge increases in sound quality that was simply not available 5 years ago
The great thing is, people don’t need to own a Taiko to generate their own ‘jaw dropping’ improvements. While Taiko is a great example of what’s possible, large improvements in sound quality are available to people with much more modest systems. And the really nice thing is, the improvements are totally scalable.…even a small budget can generate some seriously better sounds with some prudent network tweaks.
I’ve been around hi-fi for over 50 years, starting with digital soon after the first CD players released. But for a very long time, the SQ of even the finest CDPs was reasonably easy to exceed with a decent turntable, arm and cartridge. Only in the last 5-7 years has this begun to change in terms of digital becoming substantially better and what’s driving that change are the improvements in the servers’ and networks’ abilities to reduce noise and generate an increasingly high quality data stream.
... yeah - it`s very basic... I use an LG CD - ROM to rip CDs via dBPoweramp to lossless WAV, save it on my Imac and run files with Roon as software - from there via ethernet to a usual Fritzbox and from there via ethernet to musicroom, where I have a socket for internet/ethernet... so basically thats where I pick up the signal with a mediocre ethernet cable from audioquest and run it into an Auralic Aries G1... from there it goes to the McIntosh C52 where I use the onboard DAC... not much love or effort put into it and I keep thinking whether to improve the streaming chain or just let it be and buy a decent CDP... especially as I play vinyl 80% of the time... cheers
@skinnyfla The Auralic has a good reputation. Do you have a sense of how good the McIntosh's onboard DAC is? I still think a simple 30-day money-back-guarantee experiment with a passive filter will tell you if the issue is network noise introduced into the network.
Or, if you had $12k burning a hole in your pocket, a demo of the Grimm MU1 in place of the Auralic. The Grimm sounds a little better with a passive filter, but just by itself is very immune to network noise (the Grimm is a server/streamer/Roon endpoint/DDC). For the test, you could keep the files where they are.
You can also connect a transport to the Grimm and it will provide excellent clocking and sampling to your DAC, thus improving the performance of the DAC. You would have the best of both digital worlds.
Of course, you don't need $12k for a demo, but you would need it after you hear the results. If I can be of any further assistance spending your hard-earned money, please let me know.
That's your take. Doesn't sound anything like that either via my Neodio Origine S2 in my main system, nor via the Modwright Elysee DACand Sim Audio 260 dt I no my second system
The Elyse DAC is a great design and there are not many out there. As to vinyl vs digital, they are different experiences in my opinion. For years, I feel that Digital strove to reach the performance of Analog. Many will argue that it has, and some will say it surpasses digital. When doing a show, I always listen to see which is superior, digital or analog. It is typically very close, but Analog tends to provide a bigger and more natural overall sonic experience for me. The last show we did, I used a PH 9.0XT phono with Sota Cosmos, SME V arm and Ortofon Winfeld Ti cartridge. Digital was a DAC 204 feeding Analog Bridge. LS 99 pre and KWA 99 mono blocks were also used, and speakers were Acora Acoustics. Digital vs Analog was very close. On some music, I preferred vinyl, on others I preferred digital. As I say, both are valid and unique experiences.
as an audiophile friend pointed out, these tests tell you about the ISP's delivery performance, they don't tell you anything about bottlenecks, etc. occurring in the home network.
That doesn't mean the tests aren't valid and helpful, but if your ISP has decent service, you still need to pay attention to the home network challenges.