Exactly. We all perceive things differently. Have been in rooms with vinyl that I thought didn’t sound good at all but the vinyl guys loved it. Same with digital. It is just the way folks are.
Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?
- Thread starter ScottK
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Rex so you now have a $1000 vinyl setup that you hear as blowing away all digital?… excellent!! Given your deep pro video bent could you record some videos of your compares and share so I can get a better sense of what you are hearing.
Being that my setup seems to be much more revealing, I am aware the difference between Redbook and High Resolution files. The Redbook on my setup are a little hard and I only turn the volume to low 70 dbs. With High Rez, I am turning it all the way over. Up to the high 70, just touching 80 db. It seems more quiet. There is less glare, haze, hardness. Less distortion. I use to not bother seeking High Rez CD. I can see there is some value in them now. Maybe people who have not built themselves a good digital setup yet also lack good source material. I appreciate high resolution files now and will focus on procuring those in the future.
Just to shake it up, stopped at a record shop and got a couple Direct to Disc 45s and Deutsche Grammophone records. Ended up spending $140 on records.
Just to shake it up, stopped at a record shop and got a couple Direct to Disc 45s and Deutsche Grammophone records. Ended up spending $140 on records.
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I don't think so, but I never liked the sound of the majority of their vinyl remasters because I don't care for their taste in EQ. That is probably why the previous comparison favored the non-Mofi version.
Have you followed Steve since he tried Etsuro and got Horizon and Taiko? It seems that he is enjoying streaming now more than his AF1.
If you have a problem with hardness and glare on Redbook and need to turn the volume down compared to "Hi Rez", it's your digital playback, not the format.
Listening at dB levels in the 70s just touching 80? I listen at peaks of 100 dBC, no problem, and often at averages around 90 dBC or not far below. But everything needs to align for minimum distortion, not just gear but also power and room acoustics. Banishing hardness is, well, hard. Took me quite a while to get there.
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I will take a cartridge set up by someone with good ears without special tools, over a cartridge set up by microscope and special tools any day of the week. And spend the money saved on a better cartridges, good AAA records can be had cheap in the used market, just don't by the rare ones.
The tools are only as good as the tool using them ..
Tim, i agree that it's hard to separate ownership of the whole vinyl process from the full intake of the musical side of vinyl. you can choose to keep set-up at arms length, but that will then be a constant brake on your vinyl flow. how can it not be? hearing the differences during set-up and understanding cause and effect of changes made is an underpinning of optimization over time. being exact and perfect is secondary to having a feel for things. which comes from doing.
and curating your vinyl collection is another part of the 'vinyl process' equation. which includes organization and a cleaning regimen. it does not need to be exhaustive, but it needs to be yours. Sunday i cleaned, and yesterday listened to, 15 Debussy pressings, read the back covers, listened to at least half a side on each. right now i'm in the middle of listening to 10 'Lute' pressings, the composer mostly Dowland, the artist mostly O'Dette, which i cleaned yesterday. talk about getting close to the music. i'm living it. with Debussy i'm in late 19th and early 20th century Paris, with Dowland i'm in 16th and 17th century London. the music and history is intertwined. i'm sure i'm just a piker compared to some experts here. but for me personally this is seeing the world, and connecting history and music's place, through the music. the vinyl process is delivering an experience. it slows you down to smell the flowers.
yesterday and today i'm cleaning 40 Dvorak pressings, won't get to listening to those until tomorrow.
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I would happily wear earplugs while listening with you. Maybe you play so loud you damaged your hearing where you can't tell the difference between Redbook and High Resolution files. I was not able to listen to music of be around loud noise like driving in a car for close to 2.weeks after listening with Marty. He likes that intense volume level. I find it physically painful and have to plug my ears when exposed to it.
The last couple concerts I went to the volume was only around 76db. There is no reason a stereo should be played so loud. When a concert is louder, I wear earplugs and accept its more about the experience than the music.
No, my hearing is just fine, thank you. I am following NIOSH recommendations,
Noise and Hearing Loss
Loud noise at work can damage your hearing. Learn about industries at risk and prevention methods.
www.cdc.gov
and I am safely at, or mostly under, their daily exposure limits (measured in dBA (note 1), which I also use my calibrated Reed SPL meter for; I check levels frequently). When I watch TV upstairs, I have the volume set rather low (very low in fact), and I can hear it just as easily as many years ago.
When I go to the Boston Symphony or Jordan Hall of New England Conservatory, orchestral peak levels are about 95 - 100 dBC, at some points even reaching 110 dBC, depending on the size of the orchestra and seating position.
Of course, if your sound is distorted, which can happen easily even just under suboptimal conditions when it comes to room acoustics (people just don't realize how much rooms themselves distort the sound!!), then sound levels can become painful much earlier (note 2).
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1) usually the readouts in dBA are much lower than in dBC, also because bass frequencies (which are much less damaging to the ear than high frequencies) fall away in the dBA scale
2) people blame distortion on amplifier clipping even when it's just that darn room
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I would sit further back at the Symphony or wear ear protection. Thats just so loud. Some people seem to like it or tolerate it. I don't.No, my hearing is just fine, thank you. I am following NIOSH recommendations,
Noise and Hearing Loss
Loud noise at work can damage your hearing. Learn about industries at risk and prevention methods.
and I am safely at, or mostly under, their daily exposure limits (measured in dBA (note 1), which I also use my calibrated Reed SPL meter for; I check levels frequently). When I watch TV upstairs, I have the volume set rather low (very low in fact), and I can hear it just as easily as many years ago.
When I go to the Boston Symphony or Jordan Hall of New England Conservatory, orchestral peak levels are about 95 - 100 dBC, at some points even reaching 110 dBC, depending on the size of the orchestra and seating position.
Of course, if your sound is distorted, which can happen easily even just under suboptimal conditions when it comes to room acoustics (people just don't realize how much rooms themselves distort the sound!!), then sound levels can become painful much earlier (note 2).
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1) usually the readouts in dBA are much lower than in dBC, also because bass frequencies (which are much less damaging to the ear than high frequencies) fall away in the dBA scale
2) people blame distortion on amplifier clipping even when it's just that darn room
OSHA is a joke. Its designed for construction. We called one time on a job as they air was so heavy with dust from sand blasting wood and grinding floors. OSHA came out and said they could not see the dust in a dark room so no action required on their part. We had to buy out own respiration. Then the general starts hassling us saying you have to have lung resperation test to use breathing protection. All the while they promote safty classes and tell us silicosis from concrete dust is as bad as asbestos.
Ok, you have very sensitive ears. But then don't make claims about hearing loss based on that.
NIOSH is different from OSHA:
What's the Difference between NIOSH and OSHA in Ensuring Workplace Safety? | Abyde
NIOSH and OSHA are two distinct but interconnected agencies that are vital in promoting workplace safety in the United States.
abyde.com
I am definitely not alone Al. I know very few people that like their music loud. Last time I left Mikes place, my friend said his ears hurt, as did mine. I run under an assumption if something hurts, its probably not good for you. Exercise being an exception.
The original point was, high resolution files play better and lift digital to a more satisfying level. I don't know why I find Redbook telling me to turn it down. You may want to point your finger at distortion, and I don't disagree. But why is it there with redbook and not high resolution files. I didn't change anything other than opening a different folder on the same drive inside the same server with the same software/program. This has been fairly consistent across maybe 7 high resolution files and 15 redbook files.
Even with my tape, I don't fimd myself trying to play at louder levels than the high resolution files. Appropriately loud seems Appropriately loud. Sort of like Carlos theory about a system having an optimal playback level. I hit that level around 72db to 74db. Redook pushes me lower.
The original point was, high resolution files play better and lift digital to a more satisfying level. I don't know why I find Redbook telling me to turn it down. You may want to point your finger at distortion, and I don't disagree. But why is it there with redbook and not high resolution files. I didn't change anything other than opening a different folder on the same drive inside the same server with the same software/program. This has been fairly consistent across maybe 7 high resolution files and 15 redbook files.
Even with my tape, I don't fimd myself trying to play at louder levels than the high resolution files. Appropriately loud seems Appropriately loud. Sort of like Carlos theory about a system having an optimal playback level. I hit that level around 72db to 74db. Redook pushes me lower.
My thoughts are that each recording has an optimal playback level and a good system should be able to cover the range of many recordings so that each can be played at its optimal level.
That’s kinda low for realism.
Whats your room noise floor ..? Would have to be pretty low for 72/74 db to have any realism ..!
As I said, if you have to turn Redbook down compared to "Hi-Rez" because of hardness and glare, your digital playback is not optimal.
Many DACs do not decode Redbook as well as "Hi-Rez". Also, as Mike recently posted (I think), proper clocking is the key to good Redbook. My Mutec reclocker (between CD transport and DAC) definitely helps to make things cleaner and more natural sounding.
Exactly. Spot on.
Let the rest of the choir babble on about what they need to tell themselves
Indeed.
Yes, if I listen to a string quartet from the middle of a not so small hall it may sound that soft, around 75 dBC peaks or lower (I have experienced that a few times). But sit closer, and it can get quite loud (or *very* loud, as I once experienced). And in the small spaces and/or with mikes rather close, as during typical recording sessions (also those of the so-called "golden age", by the way), a string quartet does sound loud. Therefore, if you want to do the recording justice in terms of realistic reproduction, you just can't turn the volume that low.
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