Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[AudioHR]

I once had Chris Feickert over at my place when they had the first commercial version of Adjust +. They measured my setup, which I did entirely myself just with a protractor, and declared that there was nothing to adjust…even VTA and Azimuth were spot on. Now I find my vision isn’t as good, so I have more difficulty getting it right…something like Adjust + would now be quite helpful.

I hear you fellow ageing audiophile!

Maybe you aren't ageing but I am, once what was easy to align is difficult and exasperating. I have a great friend and a retailer who are both very good at the finicky stuff and have most of the latest setup gear. So far my method has been to have them setup the system and then listen. Both are wonderful in coming back to tweak things.

 

[AudioHR]

I do have my tape running. I have one master tape of an album I love, and a digital file of the same album I made from a CD I copied with DB Poweramp. The tape is clearly better. But, that does not dismiss that any of the digital I have is playing way better in the new room than any source I had in the old room. The current setup, in this room has digital superior to the analog and tape in my old room.

I don't think it's an opinion in a vinyl/digital debate to say any source you focus on can be the most premium playback media in your system. The argument that you focused on vinyl and surpassed your digital is only a result in your room from your effort. It has nothing to do with other peoples results in their room with their efforts. I don't see one as better than the other. I see what you focus your efforts on and continue to tune will continue to improve. You might think you have a viny or tape that is better than digital, but someone could show up with a better digital with better source material and supersede your vinyl. Digital is amazingly musical, natural and real in my room. Far better than what I use to measure as Natural Sound and real in my old room. You may find your vinyl the best media in your system. That does not mean it could not be superseded by digital with appropriate effort and media.

" You may find your vinyl the best media in your system. That does not mean it could not be superseded by digital with appropriate effort and media."

To your above point I don't disagree. The exact opposite could be true though, vinyl could trump what you thought was the best digital sound ever with the appropriate effort and media. Around and around we go, really not sure what we are debating!

 

[Kingrex]

Im designing a new tone arm that automatically alignes the cartridge for optimum performance.

I'm also selling a bridge.

 

[dcathro]

A "CD only" release that sounds really good, IMO:

Bossas and Ballads - Stan Getz and Kenny Barron
Recorded in 1989.

Posted in my thread but thought I'd share it here as well.

Nice extended piano solo by Barron starting around 4:45.

It's a studio recording but sounds like a live recording.

Give it a try (in your system)! Let me know what you think.

Open Qobuz

open.qobuz.com

Thanks for the recommendation, I have ordered a copy.

 

[hopkins]

An old LP, less than mint, but a mono version of one of my favorites, that you can only find in digital as stereo.

https://www.discogs.com/release/6467281-Duke-Ellington-Johnny-Hodges-Duke-Ellington-et-Johnny-Hodges

There may be better versions out there, but I found a cheap copy of this one locally, to satisfy my curiosity.

I figure this is the closest I have ever been to experiencing Ellington and Hodges' artistry, and I love every second of it. The piano introduction and Hodges' solo starting around 5:00 with the piano and guitar backing blow my mind both musically and "sonically" Harry Edison's trumpet solo in the middle does not move me as much, but when Hodges starts blowing you can feel the other musicians, playing around him in the studio, giving him space to do his thing, and getting into his "groove". It's all pretty subtle, and great to hear in good "fidelity". It's the little details that make the difference between the good and the exceptional.

There's a time for debates, and a time to simply enjoy what you have. If you don't, then go out and listen to other systems and report back when something knocks you off your feet (as some of you have). Carpe Diem!

I would be curious to know what source material still exist of this session. I have the HDTT digital version of this album, in stereo, and I vastly prefer the LP mono version. Were there different tapes, microphones, used to record this session in mono and stereo? I don't know. Perhaps if good quality mono tapes are still available, a very good digital version could be made.

 

[Rensselaer]

An old LP, less than mint, but a mono version of one of my favorites, that you can only find in digital as stereo.

https://www.discogs.com/release/6467281-Duke-Ellington-Johnny-Hodges-Duke-Ellington-et-Johnny-Hodges

There may be better versions out there, but I found a cheap copy of this one locally, to satisfy my curiosity.

I figure this is the closest I'll ever get to experiencing Ellington and Hodges' artistry, and I love every second of it. The piano introduction and Hodges' solo starting around 5:00 with the piano and guitar backing blow my mind both musically and "sonically"

There's a time for debates, and a time to simply enjoy what you have. If you don't, then go out and listen to other systems and report back when something knocks you off your feet (as some of you have). Carpe Diem!

I would be curious to know what source material still exist of this session. I have the HDTT digital version of this album, in stereo, and I vastly prefer the LP mono version. Were there different tapes, microphones, used to record this session in mono and stereo? I don't know. Perhaps if good quality mono tapes are still available, a very good digital version could be made.

When I bought CDs, I bought this series of I think bootleg compilations, one called “jazz”, one “saxophone”, a second “saxophone”, etc. On the first “Saxophone” CD, there was a version of “I’ve got it bad and that ain’t good” by Johnny Hodges. On that version he bends the notes on his saxophone in a way that I had never heard before, or since.

I have since purchased many Johnny Hodges records, as solo artist or playing in Duke Ellington’s band, looking for that version of the song, but haven’t found it yet. To make matters worse, when I sold my CD playback gear I was left with loads of CDs that were just piled up in a corner taking up space. After awhile, my wife, covertly, sold most of those CD’s on Magpie.com, including that series of great jazz recordings. …

Johnny Hodges was a great saxophonist.

 

[Joe Whip]

An old LP, less than mint, but a mono version of one of my favorites, that you can only find in digital as stereo.

https://www.discogs.com/release/6467281-Duke-Ellington-Johnny-Hodges-Duke-Ellington-et-Johnny-Hodges

There may be better versions out there, but I found a cheap copy of this one locally, to satisfy my curiosity.

I figure this is the closest I have ever been to experiencing Ellington and Hodges' artistry, and I love every second of it. The piano introduction and Hodges' solo starting around 5:00 with the piano and guitar backing blow my mind both musically and "sonically" Harry Edison's trumpet solo in the middle does not move me as much, but when Hodges starts blowing you can feel the other musicians, playing around him in the studio, giving him space to do his thing, and getting into his "groove". It's all pretty subtle, and great to hear in good "fidelity". It's the little details that make the difference between the good and the exceptional.

There's a time for debates, and a time to simply enjoy what you have. If you don't, then go out and listen to other systems and report back when something knocks you off your feet (as some of you have). Carpe Diem!

I would be curious to know what source material still exist of this session. I have the HDTT digital version of this album, in stereo, and I vastly prefer the LP mono version. Were there different tapes, microphones, used to record this session in mono and stereo? I don't know. Perhaps if good quality mono tapes are still available, a very good digital version could be made.

I do not know about this particular title but in the early days of stereo, there were recordings made where different mics were used. One Monk recording in particular, the mono release was close mic’d whereas the stereo was recorded with mics hung high. The mono is more immediate with way better bass. Same performance, tape machines etc. one of the few releases where I prefer the mono.

 

[Joe Whip]

The album by the way is Monk’s Music.

 

[Kingrex]

Mike.and HeiHei kind of summed up vinyl with the concept of it being a ritual. Going through hundreds of records to see if any are enjoyable and or play well. And just touching them. Our eyes were not made to stare at a LED in the dark. They are designed for reflected light. Roon does dig deep with data. But a classical album sleeve is pleasant and informative. I miss my record player. My life is so in transition and I don't see an end. I don't see vinyl or a well setup room for years. Digital will have to do. I am even packing the tapes as the room they are in gets to hot. They need to move.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike.and HeiHei kind of summed up vinyl with the concept of it being a ritual. Going through hundreds of records to see if any are enjoyable and or play well. And just touching them.

I don't see it this way at all. I don't care about fondling the physical media. I have zero nostalgia about fiddling with records when I was a kid. I find records annoying to find and annoying to play and annoying to store.

For me it is 100% about the sound quality of the playback of analog recordings.

 

[bonzo75]

Mike.and HeiHei kind of summed up vinyl with the concept of it being a ritual. Going through hundreds of records to see if any are enjoyable and or play well. And just touching them.

Maybe for old people touching vinyl has some emotional connection, for people like me there is no nostalgia or benefit associated with the tactile part.

You don't have to go through hundreds except during learning phase to see if any are enjoyable. As you gain experience, classical pieces, pressings, and performers are known. Sure, you will prefer some to others, but the whole process of listening to good performances is enjoyable, so what if you are comparing a performance on a Decca vs one on Columbia vs one on RCA etc? Much more enjoyable than comparing CJ Art to CJ Gat to AR ref 10 or MSB to dCS, dCS vivaldi to dCS Apex.

For non classical, like rock, there are not different performers performing the same piece, it is the same artist either live or studio. Then you only need to know which pressing so easier. For those that you cannot afford originals you need to know which reissue, which makes the sample size much smaller.

Any record compares you are doing now you are only enriching your hobby, so why complain? Those who don't want to learn are banished to defending digital

 

[AudioHR]

I don't see it this way at all. I don't care about fondling the physical media. I have zero nostalgia about fiddling with records when I was a kid. I find records annoying to find and annoying to play and annoying to store.

For me it is 100% about the sound quality of the playback of analog recordings.

I can understand the nostalgia and the ritual as I grew up with vinyl. Still If I didn't find its sound enjoyable and in most cases superior I probably wouldn't continue to play it. Digital has come a long way and one can't deny its convenience.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't see it this way at all. I don't care about fondling the physical media. I have zero nostalgia about fiddling with records when I was a kid. I find records annoying to find and annoying to play and annoying to store.

i would challenge you to to consider that part of finding the highest level of listening enjoyment is ritual. muscle memory and patterns. you do things, your heart rate lowers, your shoulders relax, it leads to a deeper experience. having an out of body sense of calm and contentment. touching the soul, all your senses and body, and not just your surface listening recognition.

i place a record in the RCM and go into my room and listen to the previous cleaned record, read the notes on the back, maybe look it up on the web. learn something i did not know. maybe listen with more intent, think about it some, maybe want to listen to another track on side 2. do that 10 or 15 times in a session. from the same composer. grow my musical universe. lose myself completely. the world falls away. i feel great.

if an aspect of the basic listening process is actually annoying, then consider finding a path out of that opinion.

just think about it.

For me it is 100% about the sound quality of the playback of analog recordings.

nothing wrong with that. but you are short changing yourself. instead; embrace all of it.

 

[Rexp]

i would challenge you to to consider that part of finding the highest level of listening enjoyment is ritual. muscle memory and patterns. you do things, your heart rate lowers, your shoulders relax, it leads to a deeper experience. having an out of body sense of calm and contentment. touching the soul, all your senses and body, and not just your surface listening recognition.

i place a record in the RCM and go into my room and listen to the previous cleaned record, read the notes on the back, maybe look it up on the web. learn something i did not know. maybe listen with more intent, think about it some, maybe want to listen to another track on side 2. do that 10 or 15 times in a session. from the same composer. grow my musical universe. lose myself completely. the world falls away. i feel great.

if an aspect of the basic listening process is actually annoying, then consider finding a path out of that opinion.

just think about it.

nothing wrong with that. but you are short changing yourself. instead; embrace all of it.

So you know better than Ron, lol.. Get a grip!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So you know better than Ron, lol.. Get a grip!

just selling Ron on the alternative. he has to buy.

 

[Ron Resnick]

you are short changing yourself. instead; embrace all of it.

Thank you, Mike.

I affirmatively enjoy operating the tape machine.

 

[A-Line]

Digital will also have to contend with analog master tapes. Right now digital can't touch that format. I was lucky enough to be invited many years ago to hear the master tape of Joni Mitchell's 1976 Hejira Album at a recording studio on a Studer machine. I have that album in LP format since 1977.

Master tapes are usually owned by the record label and are therefore unobtainable to the average music fan. Copies of master tapes are extremely rare of major recording artists.

 

[Argonaut]

Maybe for old people touching vinyl has some emotional connection, for people like me there is no nostalgia or benefit associated with the tactile part.

Kedar … You *Are* “old people” to a significant % of the Global Population , You just haven’t reconciled yourself to that fact yet

 

[hopkins]

When I bought CDs, I bought this series of I think bootleg compilations, one called “jazz”, one “saxophone”, a second “saxophone”, etc. On the first “Saxophone” CD, there was a version of “I’ve got it bad and that ain’t good” by Johnny Hodges. On that version he bends the notes on his saxophone in a way that I had never heard before, or since.

I have since purchased many Johnny Hodges records, as solo artist or playing in Duke Ellington’s band, looking for that version of the song, but haven’t found it yet. To make matters worse, when I sold my CD playback gear I was left with loads of CDs that were just piled up in a corner taking up space. After awhile, my wife, covertly, sold most of those CD’s on Magpie.com, including that series of great jazz recordings. …

Johnny Hodges was a great saxophonist.

That was one of his feature songs with Ellington, so there are many versions. Here's a nice one with Jimmy Jones on piano:

P.S. This is another album with mono versions (analog only). I just ordered a mono version.

Hope you find it!

 

[Kingrex]

i would challenge you to to consider that part of finding the highest level of listening enjoyment is ritual. muscle memory and patterns. you do things, your heart rate lowers, your shoulders relax, it leads to a deeper experience. having an out of body sense of calm and contentment. touching the soul, all your senses and body, and not just your surface listening recognition.

i place a record in the RCM and go into my room and listen to the previous cleaned record, read the notes on the back, maybe look it up on the web. learn something i did not know. maybe listen with more intent, think about it some, maybe want to listen to another track on side 2. do that 10 or 15 times in a session. from the same composer. grow my musical universe. lose myself completely. the world falls away. i feel great.

if an aspect of the basic listening process is actually annoying, then consider finding a path out of that opinion.

just think about it.

nothing wrong with that. but you are short changing yourself. instead; embrace all of it.

I agree fully. I am not in a nostalgia mode when I touch vinyl. I am connecting with the media. I sit and listen and read the sleeve. Maybe stop and get absorbed. I notice parts I like and parts that bother me. But its all good. I was also expressing you can do the same with Roon. Its only different in that I tire of sceen time. And your not attaching the moment to a physical object. Sometimes I'm surprised how good something sounds coming from a piece of vinyl that looks pretty beat up.

And to Bonzos point, there is a curiosity to how different records sound based on the pressing, conductor and orchestra. I personally am becoming more aware what might sound good that I see at a record store for $1 to $3.

Thank you, Mike.

I affirmatively enjoy operating the tape machine.

Tape irritates me the most. You have to load it, rewind it, reload it, then deal with any squeeking reels that are warped. And non of mine have a jacket to read. I love the sound. But I prefer to manage records.