Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[dcathro]

I am surprised to read your impression of BG caps because they are so far removed from my own. To be clear, there were different BG models and they sound quite different. I find the BG 100uf WKZ (either single or dual 100+100) to be the very best sounding caps for a high-voltage tube-rectified power supply. Bar none. I use the 100uf WKZ caps exclusively in my phono stage, linestage and DAC. In the past, I used them in my SE amps but I prefer these days to run the BG caps more conservatively to give them the longest life possible. So far I have 20+ years on many of my BGs and they are still just fine. BTW, the 50uf WKZ is too thin and lean; it’s the 100uf that has the magic.

There are a number of other BG models that were less expensive such as the VK series, but they sound mediocre at best. The only other BG cap I like is the FK series which came in lower voltage ratings. I find the FK caps just right for cathode bypass duty.

I suspect that it may be circuit dependent as well as interaction with surrounding components.

My preamp is solid state with 30v rails and I have found the large N non-polars (35v and 50v) as well as the NH to sound great.

Funnily enough, the large FKs didn't work in my power amp

Someone mentioned Audio Note Kaisei caps which PQ claims are very close to BG. I wish that were true; unfortunately it’s not. They aren’t even close.

The Kaisei caps are definitely brighter sounding that BGs, but I still like them.

While I am on my soapbox, someone also mentioned Audio Note niobium resistors and all the research work that went into developing them. I have tried Peter’s niobium resistors, regular and silver, in a number of places, and to my ears they are too colored—much too lean in the bass and too bright as well. The best sounding resistor Audio Note makes is the 2 watt Silver Tantalum. (Not the 1/2 watt or 1 watt, and most certainly not the regular non-magnetic tantalums.). I use many of the 2w Silver Tantalum’s throughout my system.

Interesting that you found this. I have some 100KOhm in both the 2W silver tants and silver niobiiums to try in my stepped attenuator. I have always found tants to sound a little dark compared with carbon films. I have no idea about niobium.

 

[dcathro]

i respectfully suggest it's time to take the ultra techie caps and AN OEM build discussion over to another thread as it has zero to do with the topic. might certainly be worth another thread to some and go have at it......there.

Maybe Mike, but at least it is better than a lot of the mindless petty arguing and insulting that has occupied much of the thread

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Maybe Mike, but at least it is better than a lot of the mindless petty arguing and insulting that has occupied much of the thread

better? the issue is if it pulls people into a relevant discussion of the topic then fine it's better, if it pushes most away then it's not. degrees of pettiness and bad acting is going to be part of the picture i do agree. and this type topic will have a certain amount of bravado and snarky ness. just when the techies get going there is no stopping the train and the thread dies. there are complete forums just about capacitors and such stuff. they are......over there.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Rensselaer]

better? the issue is if it pulls people into a relevant discussion of the topic then fine it's better, if it pushes most away then it's not. degrees of pettiness and bad acting is going to be part of the picture i do agree. and this type topic with have a certain amount of bravado and snarky ness. just when the techies get going there is no stopping the train and the thread dies. there are complete forums just about capacitors and such stuff. they are......over there.

just my 2 cents.

What about the "techies" that went ad-nausium about different DAC designs? Are not resistors and capacitors used in digital front ends?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What about the "techies" that went ad-nausium about different DAC designs? Are not resistors and capacitors used in digital front ends?

i've said all i need to say.....whatever. if it's not obvious about the relevance of the comparative points you are making then we just go on. with all due respect.

 

[Rensselaer]

i've said all i need to say.....whatever. if it's not obvious about the relevance of the comparative points you are making then we just go on. with all due respect.

I agree with you Mike, you’re correct, and I was thinking the same when we were hammered with postings about different DACs and their technology.

 

[Kingrex]

Sent through a mixing board where some engineer may fiddle, don’t get me started!

I told the story where a friend band handed out there promo CD at a competition. He gave me one. It sounded like crap and I told him why. He listened with his band and heard it. Took it to the recording studio and they heard it. Turns out the guy burning the CD decided to alter it for I don't know why. Just something I hear they might do.

 

[Kingrex]

better? the issue is if it pulls people into a relevant discussion of the topic then fine it's better, if it pushes most away then it's not. degrees of pettiness and bad acting is going to be part of the picture i do agree. and this type topic will have a certain amount of bravado and snarky ness. just when the techies get going there is no stopping the train and the thread dies. there are complete forums just about capacitors and such stuff. they are......over there.

just my 2 cents.

We need Carlos. He could set the record straight. I sort of miss his spit and fire.

 

[Kingrex]

If people would post a video of their digital and vinyl, we could tell which sounded better.

 

[rsrzr]

I currently have both digital and vinyl front ends. For the most part I think my vinyl playback sounds, let's say, 10% better than most of my comparable digital recordings (IMO). I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage . Problem is I'm not convinced I could get there even after spending 10"s of thousands of dollars to do it. I'm fairly happy with my current DAC/Streamer and was thinking it might make better sense to wait a couple of years to see what may shake out of vendors in this fast changing technology. For those who are or were in a similar situation any advice would be appreciated.View attachment 113795

If your digital setup isn’t better than your analog setup, then you are doing something wrong. When MQA came out and with dsd files, I sold my analog setup plus all my vinyl over 5 years ago and never regretted it.
I had a $15k turntable and arm, $5k pre, and my $8k dac sounded better.
It was a pain cleaning all my albums, and even then it couldn’t get all the noise out of the album.
As for sound quality, why did mofi use dsd to create their vinyl albums? everybody swore how good these sounded until they found out digital was involved then magically, they didn’t sound as good as they did a day earlier.
IMO, you need to spend over 10x more on a vinyl setup compared to a digital setup to get close to the same sound quality.

 

[Rensselaer]

As for sound quality, why did mofi use dsd to create their vinyl albums? everybody swore how good these sounded until they found out digital was involved then magically, they didn’t sound as good as they did a day earlier.

MoFi uses DSD to create their albums because Sony bought up most of the companies holding the rights to music, master their own DSD master files from those analogue master tapes and will only release those DSD masters (never the analogue tape). The creators of the CD are attempting to make better-sounding analogue records a thing of the past. They want to corner the entire music business. Sort of like the VHS/Betamax format wars.

As to the often quipped urban myth about “everyone” swearing how good those records sounded till they found out they were actually digital, name one?

Why don’t you just admit that you have spent so much on your digital front end upgrades, trying to get relaxing natural sound, like the best analogue records, that you started saying digital is better so that you don’t feel ripped off.

 

[facten]

Analog guys reaction to digital

Apocalypse Now - The Horror

 

[Rich J]

The creators of the CD are attempting to make better-sounding analogue records thing of the past. They want to corner the entire music business. Sort of like theVHS/Betamax format wars.

And look how that turned out for them .

 

[bonzo75]

I currently have both digital and vinyl front ends. For the most part I think my vinyl playback sounds, let's say, 10% better than most of my comparable digital recordings (IMO). I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage . Problem is I'm not convinced I could get there even after spending 10"s of thousands of dollars to do it. I'm fairly happy with my current DAC/Streamer and was thinking it might make better sense to wait a couple of years to see what may shake out of vendors in this fast changing technology. For those who are or were in a similar situation any advice would be appreciated.View attachment 113795

If your vinyl is not sounding much better than your digital the issue is in the recordings you use and your downstream system. The system is quite capable of bringing down vinyl to level of the digital so they both sound similar

 

[Rexp]

If your vinyl is not sounding much better than your digital the issue is in the recordings you use and your downstream system. The system is quite capable of bringing down vinyl to level of the digital so they both sound similar

True but not every WBF member would hear the difference and think vinyl was significantly better. Whether you think these members are half deaf or just immune to digital distortion is a different matter.

 

[bonzo75]

True but not every WBF member would hear the difference and think vinyl was significantly better. Whether you think these members are half deaf or just immune to digital distortion is a different matter.

Oh I think they are capable of hearing, but they can only hear it if their records and set ups allow them to. 95 percent of audiophiles will listen to gear incorrectly set up in their own home and not know what the reference is, nothing to do with their hearing capability.

 

[hopkins]

Oh I think they are capable of hearing, but they can only hear it if their records and set ups allow them to. 95 percent of audiophiles will listen to gear incorrectly set up in their own home and not know what the reference is, nothing to do with their hearing capability.

Yet many who appreciate the sound of vinyl over digital have relatively modest systems (in comparison to what you consider to be "What's Best").

 

[Rexp]

Oh I think they are capable of hearing, but they can only hear it if their records and set ups allow them to. 95 percent of audiophiles will listen to gear incorrectly set up in their own home and not know what the reference is, nothing to do with their hearing capability.

Not sure about that, have you listened to some members youtube vids, pretty sure you wouldn't last long in some of those rooms.

 

[hopkins]

Not sure about that, have you listened to some members youtube vids, pretty sure you wouldn't last long in some of those rooms.

Is that why you've never published a video of your system?

 

[Rensselaer]

Yet many who appreciate the sound of vinyl over digital have relatively modest systems (in comparison to what you consider to be "What's Best").

True! Why is it then, that the many who appreciate the sound of analogue-vinyl over digital, are content with their “relatively modest” vinyl systems? They must have auditioned at least a few comparable digital systems before taking that decision.