I am reporting that here and now, Ron. I have heard a few system videos recently that friends have sent me, some from CDs and some from vinyl. I listened to them over and over on my crappy computer. They were that excellent. They kept my interest, to use Kedar's phrase. I then listened to them while driving to work because the music was so good and they sound great. The tone and engagement, even "suspension of disbelief" to use your phrase, is much more enjoyable than what I have heard from some systems. "No exaggeration, man". If you have lost respect for my reports, what can I say?
Fair enough. I don't understand this report, but fair enough.
The reason I don't understand this report is because I cannot imagine that the suspension of disbelief one can experience driving in one's car listening to one's car stereo and imagining the experience, the feelings, the emotional engagement, the connection to the music -- the level of believability that one is listening to live music-making in front of you in a venue -- exceeds the suspension of disbelief while sitting in a listening room in front of a high-end audio system.
Even listening to my personal sonic nightmare system -- say, dCS digital to Boulder electronics on Magico Q7 loudspeakers connected with Nordost Valhalla cables in a highly reflective listening room -- would achieve for me a greater suspension of disbelief -- a greater sensation of live music-making in front of me -- than would listening to my car stereo while driving.
Fair enough. I don't understand this report, but fair enough.
The reason I don't understand this report is because I cannot imagine that the suspension of disbelief one can experience driving in one's car with one's eyes closed and imagining the experience, the feelings, the emotional engagement, the connection to the music -- the level of believability that one is listening to live music-making in front of you in a venue -- exceeds the suspension of disbelief while sitting in a listening room in front of a high-end audio system.
Sorry but your statements are misleading. You are clubbing high end audio systems (my 95% and 5%). If you are saying you haven't heard high end audio systems that are less enjoyable than car stereos, either you are exaggerating or your reports should not be followed. If you have, then question really is what is the percentage? I think it is 95, you might have a different number in mind.
Sorry but your statements are misleading. You are clubbing high end audio systems (my 95% and 5%). If you are saying you haven't heard high end audio systems that are less enjoyable than car stereos, either you are exaggerating or your reports should not be followed. If you have, then question really is what is the percentage? I think it is 95, you might have a different number in mind.
I am focusing specifically on suspension of disbelief, not on whether a system is "enjoyable."
Maybe it is a difference in psychoacoustics or definitions?
If I am listening to my car stereo while driving there is no way I am ever going to believe I am sitting in the orchestra section of Walt Disney Concert Hall listening to live music-making in front of me.
I don't get this. So you can suspend disbelief even if you find something in a high end system that is flawed in set up? Let's say cartridge is not correctly matched to phono, speakers have a massive issue with the room, gain impedance drive mismtaches causing audible issues (e.g. lack of drive, shoutiness,). what about with bad quality recordings?
I don't get this. So you can suspend disbelief even if you find something in a high end system that is flawed in set up? Let's say cartridge is not correctly matched to phono, speakers have a massive issue with the room, gain impedance drive mismtaches causing audible issues (e.g. lack of drive, shoutiness,). what about with bad quality recordings?
I don't consider suspension of disbelief to be binary (disbelief is not suspended, disbelief is suspended).
I don't think disbelief can ever be 100% suspended, because I think that would mean that we truly believe we are listening at that moment to live music-making in a performance venue. I think a claim of 100% suspension of disbelief would be a quick ticket to the rubber room.
I consider suspension of disbelief to be a concept that exists on a relative scale, on a scale of more or less, but not rising to 100% without mental delusion.
Sorry this is not true. Some people can say that direct cut vinyl can have similar resolution, but no way tape has more resolution than digital. But yes, sound engineers have told us that digital has too much resolution and it needs to be used adequately to avoid sounding artificial.
(...) Even listening to my personal sonic nightmare system -- say, dCS digital to Boulder electronics on Magico Q7 loudspeakers connected with Nordost Valhalla cables in a highly reflective listening room -- would achieve for me a greater suspension of disbelief -- a greater sensation of live music-making in front of me -- than would listening to my car stereo while driving.
I have some experience with the great sounding Magico Q7 (original and much improved mk2) . No need to refer to electronics - it would sound miserable in a high reflective listening room.
I believe that in an adequate and optimized room the system you refer could sound great.
I am focusing specifically on suspension of disbelief, not on whether a system is "enjoyable."
Maybe it is a difference in psychoacoustics or definitions?
If I am listening to my car stereo while driving there is no way I am ever going to believe I am sitting in the orchestra section of Walt Disney Concert Hall listening to live music-making in front of me.
Ok, you can't believe the orchestra section in your car. Can you believe it in a system you do not like. I am not saying it is a system you like, just no in your top. It is a system you clearly do not like. Just Yes or No, Ron master style, please.
Sorry this is not true. Some people can say that direct cut vinyl can have similar resolution, but no way tape has more resolution than digital. But yes, sound engineers have told us that digital has too much resolution and it needs to be used adequately to avoid sounding artificial.
In the context of live unamplified music being the reference, what does “too much resolution” mean? Do microphones capture so much information that is then digitally recorded so the result sounds artificial?
I have heard digital replay sound artificial but it is not from too much information or resolution. It is from too many distortions.
Ok, you can't believe the orchestra section in your car. Can you believe it in a system you do not like. I am not saying it is a system you like, just no in your top. It is a system you clearly do not like. Just Yes or No, Ron master style, please.
Sorry, but "can I believe it or not" is back to the binary suspension of disbelief thing, which I just think makes no sense. I cannot answer "yes" or "no."
To answer your question the best way I can: a high-end audio system in a listening room the sound of which I "clearly do not like" is going to give me a higher suspension of disbelief than will listening to my car stereo while driving in my car. In other words listening to my car stereo while driving my car wholly defeats for me personally suspension of disbelief that I am listening to live music-making in a venue.
Sorry, but "can I believe it or not" is back to the binary suspension of disbelief thing, which I just think makes no sense.
To answer your question the best way I can: a high-end audio system in a listening room the sound of which I "clearly do not like" is going to give me a higher suspension of disbelief than will listening to my car stereo while driving in my car. In other words listening to my car stereo while driving my car wholly defeats for me personally suspension of disbelief that I am listening to live music-making in a venue.
Ok, I don't feel like listening to a system I do not like. So there is no suspension of disbelief. For me that happens only in systems I like, or while listening to vinyl rips on a soundbar. I don't understand how you think a system that you do not like can suspend disbelief of there being an orchestra
I just realized maybe why we (and Peter and I) are talking past each other.
Maybe you two are hearing enjoyable sound from the car stereo that is acting as a cue that triggers positive emotions and memories of live concert experiences. Your memory is filling in the gap between the sound of the car stereo and believable music reproduction experiences.
My question is different; I am asking and answering a different. My question goes to -- in isolation -- sitting in the car listening to the car stereo while driving, versus listening to a bad sounding high-end audio stereo in a listening room, which is better (or less ineffective), on its own, at replicating the sensation of listening to live music-making at a concert venue? In other words I am stipulating that we are answering the question by deactivating the process of imagination and of drawing into your answer (and imputing to the sound of the car stereo) past memories and past experiences.
I just realize may be why we (and Peter and I) are talking past each other.
Maybe you two are hearing enjoyable sound from the car stereo that is acting as a cue that triggers positive emotions and memories of live concert experiences. Your memory is filling in the gap between the sound of the car stereo and believable music reproduction experiences.
My question is different; I am asking and answering a different. My question goes to -- in isolation -- sitting in the car listening to the car stereo while driving, versus listening to a bad sounding high-end audio stereo in a listening room, which better, on its own, at replicating the sensation of listening to live music-making st a concert venue. Try to answer the question by deactivating the process of imagination and of drawing into your answer past memories and past experiences.
I already told you. Vinyl rips on a simple, well sorted system >>> unsorted system which through a lot of complications has got into a mess. Such systems do nothing to rekindle live experiences. You wonder how this ever got made, what was the guy thinking? I even asked one guy have you ever been to a live show. He said no. And yes, systems I like better than vinyl rips on a soundbar are high end but sorted and in the 5% I like, at various levels.
You can simply listen to those rips on your pool stereo. I wouldn't do it while driving in a car as you need to pay attention to the music.
Then you could get a vinyl of any schubert 9th performance and take it around to systems you do not like. Just don't tell the hosts.
In the context of live unamplified music being the reference, what does “too much resolution” mean? Do microphones capture so much information that is then digitally recorded so the result sounds artificial?
Yes, microphones can capture too much information. Known since long, nothing new. Recording stereo with digital needs different techniques and approaches in mixing and mastering.
Yes, we know you love to focus discussion on poor digital. Please forget the digital you found to sound artificial. Did you find it to have "too many distortions"?
Sorry this is not true. Some people can say that direct cut vinyl can have similar resolution, but no way tape has more resolution than digital. But yes, sound engineers have told us that digital has too much resolution and it needs to be used adequately to avoid sounding artificial.
And if that is a sound bar in front of a computer or a truck radio, so be it. I drove seven hours last summer to pick up my new turntable from the factory. I listen to CDs the entire time and loved it. I’ve heard systems where I need to leave the room in 10 or 15 minutes. As Kadar said, it needs to keep my interest. I don’t understand and can’t really relate to the phrase, “suspension of disbelief“.
