Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[PeterA]

I heard a YouTube video the other day of a bedroom system with a 10 year old Oppo CD player for a couple of hundred dollars. Vintage electronics and a vintage speaker system. The sound was incredibly good.

I’m not so sure that the focus on digital technology is necessarily the only way to get a good sounding system with a digital front end. It might have something to do with the rest of the system, as I learn by watching that wonderful video of a string Quartet.

If the question is at what price can digital get to vinyl sound, I think it depends on the system and one’s values. It might not take much money at all.

 

[Audire]

In reality, at the present time Digital has a different sound than Vinyl or Tape. While I think one day Digital may be able to match the sound of Analogue that day just isn't here yet.

 

[Rexp]

I heard a YouTube video the other day of a bedroom system with a 10 year old Oppo CD player for a couple of hundred dollars. Vintage electronics and a vintage speaker system. The sound was incredibly good.

I’m not so sure that the focus on digital technology is necessarily the only way to get a good sounding system with a digital front end. It might have something to do with the rest of the system, as I learn by watching that wonderful video of a string Quartet.

If the question is at what price can digital get to vinyl sound, I think it depends on the system and one’s values. It might not take much money at all.

Yes with a good recording, even budget gear sounds good, problem is most digital recordings are bad.

 

[PYP]

Yes with a good recording, even budget gear sounds good, problem is most digital recordings are bad.

digital recordings of a certain vintage? I find a lot of recent music (well, jazz anyway) is well recorded and especially sounds good if 24 bit.

 

[PYP]

If the question is at what price can digital get to vinyl sound, I think it depends on the system and one’s values.

Because vinyl sounds most like a live event? Or does vinyl have a sound signature (can't think of a better term) that you enjoy and therefore becomes your standard?

Agree that one must consider the entire system, not just the source.

 

[Rexp]

digital recordings of a certain vintage? I find a lot of recent music (well, jazz anyway) is well recorded and especially sounds good if 24 bit.

Maybe your DAC is making poor recordings sound good.

 

[manisandher]

If A to D and back to A was so simple, do you ever ask yourself why until recently digital music sounded like crap?

I've spent an eternity trying to get my vinyl rips to sound like the original vinyl. I've owned ADCs from Pacific Microsonics, Prism Sound, RME, Tascam, Korg, MOTU, etc. There's something about the original vinyl that my vinyl rips seem to miss. However... I'm not sure if this is down to the recording or the playback process. Perhaps a bit of both?

If I were to guess as to a fundamental flaw in digital (if indeed there is one), I'd say that it might be digital's noise floor being modulated by the music signal. But this is pure speculation, as I'm no electrical/digital/RF engineer. That's why I much prefer using real music and nulling techniques over test tones (sines, squares, impulses, etc.). Impulses are especially useless as they're not bandlimited, and could never occur in any music signal you ever feed your DAC (they would have been filtered out by the anti-alias filter during ADC). But getting nulling to work correctly is fiendishly difficult.

Although I remain less than 100% content with my own vinyl rips (because I can compare to the original), I'm totally content listening to digital via CDs and Roon/Qobuz streaming. Many albums sound absolutely stunning to me.

Mani.

 

[Rexp]

I've spent an eternity trying to get my vinyl rips to sound like the original vinyl. I've owned ADCs from Pacific Microsonics, Prism Sound, RME, Tascam, Korg, MOTU, etc. There's something about the original vinyl that my vinyl rips seem to miss. However... I'm not sure if this is down to the recording or the playback process. Perhaps a bit of both?

If I were to guess as to a fundamental flaw in digital (if indeed there is one), I'd say that it might be digital's noise floor being modulated by the music signal. But this is pure speculation, as I'm no electrical/digital/RF engineer. That's why I much prefer using real music and nulling techniques over test tones (sines, squares, impulses, etc.). Impulses are especially useless as they're not bandlimited, and could never occur in any music signal you ever feed your DAC (they would have been filtered out by the anti-alias filter during ADC). But getting nulling to work correctly is fiendishly difficult.

Although I remain less than 100% content with my own vinyl rips (because I can compare to the original), I'm totally content listening to digital via CDs and Roon/Qobuz streaming. Many albums sound absolutely stunning to me.

Mani.

As you found out, A to D ain't that simple.

 

[mtemur]

C2 errors are almost non existing in good CD players. More than 20 years ago I implemented counters of C1 and C2 errors and checked it. Many people did it - some manufacturers even sold players that included these counters. Anyone using appropriate CD ripping software will confirm it.

Excuse me but can you explain how Cd ripping software can confirm Cd players' error correction accuracy? How do you connect a Cd player to a computer and run Cd ripping software? Which is the appropriate Cd ripping software? Or did you mean Cd-Rom when saying Cd player?

 

[SoundMann]

Ahem...

Pre- and post-ringing are a total non-issue and just a marketing ploy IMO.

Mani.

Not so fast. Ringing is both measurable and audible to those of us who are sensitive to it.

 

[SoundMann]

If A to D and back to A was so simple, do you ever ask yourself why until recently digital music sounded like crap?

It still sounds like crap to my ears!

 

[SoundMann]

Because vinyl sounds most like a live event? Or does vinyl have a sound signature (can't think of a better term) that you enjoy and therefore becomes your standard?

Agree that one must consider the entire system, not just the source.

A Direct to disc pressing sounds closest to a live unamplified acoustical performance.

A top grade, well pressed record is virtually transparent when played with the proper equipment.

 

[christoph]

A Direct to disc pressing sounds closest to a live unamplified acoustical performance.

A top grade, well pressed record is virtually transparent when played with the proper equipment.

Can you give some examples?
Software AND hardware?

 

[manisandher]

Not so fast. Ringing is both measurable and audible to those of us who are sensitive to it.

I showed that with real music, even using a 'fast' anti-imaging filter in the DAC and then a 'fast' anti-aliasing filter in the ADC, any ringing lies at <-200dB in the passband.

Yes, you can measure ringing using impulses. But these are not bandlimited.

 

[SoundMann]

I've spent an eternity trying to get my vinyl rips to sound like the original vinyl. I've owned ADCs from Pacific Microsonics, Prism Sound, RME, Tascam, Korg, MOTU, etc. There's something about the original vinyl that my vinyl rips seem to miss. However... I'm not sure if this is down to the recording or the playback process. Perhaps a bit of both?

Mani.

Digital lacks the fine resolution of analog, which presents itself in the form of less inner detail and a diminished sense of air and space around the instruments and performers.

 

[manisandher]

Digital lacks the fine resolution of analog, which presents itself in the form of less inner detail and a diminished sense of air and space around the instruments and performers.

Yes, maybe. But I'm convinced this has nothing to do with 'ringing'.

As I said, if a gun were held to my head, I'd say that it might be due to noise modulation.

 

[hopkins]

Digital lacks the fine resolution of analog, which presents itself in the form of less inner detail and a diminished sense of air and space around the instruments and performers.

Yes, but I believe the gap is getting smaller.
The issue may not be resolution but simply errors in digital to analog conversions due to multiple factors, but the end result is what you describe.

 

[SoundMann]

Can you give some examples?
Software AND hardware?

Do you recall me talking about the tests that were performed to determine which recording format was the most accurate to live performances conducted in real time?

The sources evaluated were direct to disc vinyl (most accurate), the best studio tape, and the best studio DAT (the least accurate, and distinctly different from the performance).

All were recorded together from the same feed.

 

[SoundMann]

Yes, maybe. But I'm convinced this has nothing to do with 'ringing'.

As I said, if a gun were held to my head, I'd say that it might be due to noise modulation.

These are two different things entirely.

 

[christoph]

Do you recall me talking about the tests that were performed to determine which recording format was the most accurate to live performances conducted in real time?

The sources evaluated were direct to disc vinyl (most accurate), the best studio tape, and the best studio DAT (the least accurate, and distinctly different from the performance).

All were recorded together from the same feed.

So that is quite a bit of an effort.
Not feasible for the common audiophile.

Where would be the best sonic compromise for you?
I mean in commercially available products, again software AND hardware.