Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Rexp]

You’d choose the best recording over the best performance? That makes sense, it’s an audiophile thing and this is an audiophile forum.

Music averse?? Go to a music forum and by far the dominant choice is always for best performance and there’s always plenty of diversity in what performances and what music people love. Often the recording quality will be commented on but still the choice will still be for the best music performances and recordings are a lucky bonus if they align with best performances.

BTW I listened to that 2015 Ferit Odman jazz album you raved about. I can almost hear Coltrane and Miles having a bit of a chuckle over your recommendation… that’s if they haven’t gone to sleep during the album… I’m guessing jazz isn’t one of your special subjects .

You listen to the vinyl version? One thing is clear, music choice is subjective, you get that right?

 

[Amir]

The best digital I’ve heard anywhere was also in Utah. it was a physical CD not streaming. This is the basis of my earlier comment about system context. In this particular case the same system played both digital and vinyl very well. I don’t know why some people say the system has to be optimized for one or the other. The vinyl did sound better though.

The problem is many audio systems do not show the contrast between CD vs Streaming vs Vinyl.
I remember a test between CEC vs Macbook vs Turntable , the loudspeaker was gryphon trident and there was minor contrast between these formats. Most audiophiles do not have a reference high performance system to have right judgment.

 

[the sound of Tao]

You listen to the vinyl version? One thing is clear, music choice is subjective, you get that right?

Talk about music averse, as music it’s bland and forgettable… you were the one who brought up standards for listening to the greatest music.

I love great jazz recordings and listened to mostly analogue recordings over much of the past 5 decades so do know plenty of them… but if you’re actually talking about great music I’d admit to also be happy to choose to listen to essentially a pretty good recording of a great performance… but a really great recording of fairly unremarkable music is clearly not then the greatest music, just the best audiophile type recording.

 

[Ron Resnick]

a system optimized with vinyl will not sound optimal with digital.

This had never made sense to me, and I have had no practical experiences to support this proposition.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Most audiophiles do not have a reference high performance system to have right judgment.

I love having such a system it saves a lot of money (cables etc)
Whats wrong with a Mac book pro , i love mine .

 

[Ron Resnick]

I guess science and measurements aren't that important around here

I would frame it differently. I believe that not everything that can be measured is important, and that not everything that is important can be measured.

Personally speaking, when I finally had something objective to measure, I was scientific AF about it.

I even started a thread suggesting that members here adopt in its entirety my frequency response measurement methodology so we could compare frequency response charts.

 

[PYP]

Nope, it's not about what I listen to. You like Jazz, right? Take John Coltrane for example, now if you actually want to hear how great he is, the best recordings are on vinyl. Imagine a younger person listening to Coltrane on streaming services and dismissing him as an ok saxophone player. Now that's sad!

For Coltrane, I think the bigger danger is starting by listening to something like A Love Supreme instead of My Favorite Things, for example. Jumping into the more abstract stuff could discourage listening to more of his albums.

Qobuz has a wide variety of remasters and high resolution versions to choose from. Some sound quite good. But one needs to listen to the options to choose the best ones (for example a remastered mono version sounds quite good). How many beginners are going to do that? Or look for the best mastered vinyl. Time and persistence are the obstacles, not the medium.

 

[tima]

Talk about music averse, as music it’s bland and forgettable… you were the one who brought up standards for listening to the greatest music.

I love great jazz recordings and listen to mostly analogue recordings over much of the past 5 decades so do know plenty of them… but if you’re actually talking about great music I’d admit to also be happy to choose to listen to essentially a pretty good recording of a great performance… but a really great recording of of fairly unremarkable music is clearly not then the greatest music, just the best audiophile type recording.

I suppose I am from a place where one improved his stereo to get his music to sound better. I'm gathering that is not motivational for many here at FWB and I need to factor that into my reading posts. Music as the means to sound. Sound as the means to system. Go figure.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The best digital I’ve heard anywhere was also in Utah.

I think it's kind of easy for digital to sound relatively good on vintage loudspeakers, because, I think, the high frequency roll-off of vintage loudspeakers tends to suppress any edgy artifacts of digital playback.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I suppose I am from a place where one improved his stereo to get his music to sound better. I'm gathering that is not motivational for many here at FWB and I need to factor that into my reading posts. Music as the means to sound. Sound as the means to system. Go figure.

I rarely comment on music choice… but I think many conflate greatest recording with greatest performance or greatest music… when they’re really just listening to the recording… hmmm like Jazz at the Prawn Shop feeling validated by all those clinking glasses and atmos

 

[Amir]

Peter. your choice to 'go mysterious' on us just fans the flames of cult-ness. that's your choice, don't blame others for it. you bring up this 'best digital' experience tease, then won't make the case. not a good look.

but i can see that explaining David's methods would open them to criticism, or dismissal. a no win situation.

Mike
Please do not blame Peter,
Peter is very honest, polite and positive but the problem is Describing even simple subjects to microstrip is useless, microstrip can not underestand so he just spread negative content about others. I have ignored him after getting his nonsense answer in digital cable impedance topic.
If I were Peter then I ignore him and not answer to his questions.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike
Please do not blame Peter,
Peter is very honest, polite and positive

i have a great respect for Peter, and how serious and engaged he is in the hobby. yet he chooses to go down roads that he then has to deal with, and makes his own bed. no blame involved.

but the problem is Describing even simple subjects to microstrip is useless, microstrip can not underestand so he just spread negative content about others. I have ignored him after getting his nonsense answer in digital cable impedance topic.
If I were Peter then I ignore him and not answer to his questions.

micro can be a stickler. don't confuse his intolerance for sloppy logic with lack of understanding. we don't always agree. but i stay away from tech talk stuff.

 

[Massimo66]

This all sounds like vanity fair to me…. Sorry subjectivity. From what world and world what matters are only the notes. And then listen, listen, listen. if you want to make a serious comparison, get your ass off your chair and go to concert halls. As far as measurements are concerned, I would like to remind you that those screenshots date back to the worst and most obscurantist period of reproduced music. I would just like to applaud all those who, not giving in to the flattery of big industry, have not sold their LP collection and who, with their support for traditional systems, have kept the production of analogue systems alive, allowing us all to be able to continue to quibble about which is the best system but above all still giving us the possibility to CHOOSE... basically continuing to give us the gift of free will

 

[Rexp]

Talk about music averse, as music it’s bland and forgettable… you were the one who brought up standards for listening to the greatest music.

I love great jazz recordings and listened to mostly analogue recordings over much of the past 5 decades so do know plenty of them… but if you’re actually talking about great music I’d admit to also be happy to choose to listen to essentially a pretty good recording of a great performance… but a really great recording of fairly unremarkable music is clearly not then the greatest music, just the best audiophile type recording.

Did you listen to the vinyl, yes or no?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Did you listen to the vinyl, yes or no?

I felt violated even just listening to the music ala digital… wtf would I have a vinyl recording of it??? … do you think whether it’s analogue or digital is going to save it from being really pedestrian music… perhaps that’s the problem.

 

[Rexp]

I felt violated even just listening to the music ala digital… wtf would I have a vinyl recording of it??? … do you think whether it’s analogue or digital is going to save it from being really pedestrian music.

You made my point for me. Carry on missing out on good music but try not to inflict the same restrictions on others.

 

[tima]

I will simply not contribute content about David’s ideas to this forum that he is no longer participating in. I hope this is clear to all those who want me to share information from David here. They should stop requesting it.

Peter. your choice to 'go mysterious' on us just fans the flames of cult-ness. that's your choice, don't blame others for it. you bring up this 'best digital' experience tease, then won't make the case. not a good look.

but i can see that explaining David's methods would open them to criticism, or dismissal. a no win situation.

I think Peter declines to be a conduit to the ideas and techniques of someone who is knowledgeable and who chooses not to share that knowledge here beyond what he has done already. There is an obvious animus toward David Karmelli from those in your circle; some fester at the mere mention of his name. You don't need anything from David and I suspect he has nothing to offer you -- that's been going on for years. He's not here, he rejected FWB, so instead you badger Peter with your usual doublespeak? You injected yourself in a conversation between Peter and micro. It is Mike Lavigne who speaks of cults. "Not a good look." Why are you so upset about David and attacking Peter? No, that was rhetorical, I don't think the answer matters. No minds will be changed. Give it a rest, Mike.

 

[the sound of Tao]

You made my point for me. Carry on missing out on good music but try not to inflict the same restrictions on others.

uhmmmm sure

 

[hopkins]

Take John Coltrane for example, now if you actually want to hear how great he is, the best recordings are on vinyl. Imagine a younger person listening to Coltrane on streaming services and dismissing him as an ok saxophone player. Now that's sad!

So why do you think John Coltrane is so appreciated by people (including myself) who may have never heard him on vinyl?

Here are the jazz critic Jan Evensmo's comments on this album:

"Playing the session recently with headphones three times during a flight from Johannesburg to Frankfurt, and one final time back home, it strikes me how hypnotical fascinating it is. I have to admit I cannot follow for a minute the elaborate analysis by my good friend Lewis Porter, but it does not really matter, because the uniqueness of this music gets through anyway, to me as an experienced listener without theoretical background, and to the common man. Even scale-heavy items like “Countdown” and “Giant …” are not so difficult after all, swinging with a perfect rhythm section. Then “Spiral” and “… Song Flute” should pose no problems to any of you. And if you still feel a bit conservative about JC’s music, go for the blues!!! My favourite items, after considerable consideration but nevertheless with rather obvious results, are the blues of “Mr P. C.” and “… Mary”. If you enjoy Bessie Smith, you should enjoy these too!!! And listen to Paul Chambers behind an inspired Flanagan!!! This session is connecting the basics of early-century jazz and blues to the very new trends, no anachronisms involved, a must for every jazz lover, no matter style preferred!!!"

John Coltrane - JazzArcheology.com

John Coltrane (1926 – 1967) was a late bloomer who turned out to be one of the greatest names in jazz history, not only as a tenorsax player but as a personality whose ideas changed the whole course of jazz from the late fifties… Download The Tenor Saxophone of John Coltrane (PDF-file) – click...

www.jazzarcheology.com

That's what it's all about. The system is secondary. I don't think Evensmo had a vinyl rig in his plane seat

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Electronics Science just shows you measurements of two media and if you want to look at this subject from scientific view you should have complete mathematical model of these items:
1)Sound system
2) hearing system
3) brain system

in Electronic measurements using negative feedback is very good because it reduces distortion but when you listen to high feedback amplifiers you will realize the negative feedback is not good for sound.

Don't forget room / listening space acoustics and the air that's within the listening space (differences in temperature, humidity and pressure etc.) as part fo the mathematical model.

Then also think about the limitations of mathematical models people are using today writing so called super duper software algorithms for converting analogue to digital i.e. based on Newtonian theories and formula etc. in their DACs !