Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Al M.]

And you not releasing videos despite having a system and criticising videos. Not releasing videos has its advantages.

Except that having a system is meaningful, since you can listen to high-quality production at home.

Yet releasing a video is both meaningless and misleading, since it does not give you a proper impression of the system playing. *)

Not just my opinion, many others have come to that conclusion as well. Once you get Mike Lavigne, Marty, JackD201 or Steve Williams to release videos of their systems, we'll talk. Like many others they won't do that either, however, for very good reasons.

_______________

*) except that a video can have some limited usefulness when it comes to documenting relative differences after changing a component in the same system, not as a presentation of the system sound as such, but we have discussed that ad nauseam

 

[bonzo75]

Except that having a system is meaningful, since you can listen to high-quality production at home.

Yet releasing a video is both meaningless and misleading, since it does not give you a proper impression of the system playing. *)

Not just my opinion, many others have come to that conclusion as well. Once you get Mike Lavigne, Marty, JackD201 or Steve Williams to release videos of their systems, we'll talk. Like many others they won't do that either, however, for very good reasons.

_______________

*) except that a video can have some limited usefulness when it comes to documenting relative differences after changing a component in the same system, not as a presentation of the system sound as such, but we have discussed that ad nauseam

except that you are the only one of that group you mentioned that criticises videos on a continuous basis. Please don’t quote folks to think you will be judged by the company you quote

 

[Al M.]

except that you are the only one of that group you mentioned that criticises videos on a continuous basis. Please don’t quote folks to think you will be judged by the company you quote

You seem to be of two minds here. On one hand you say you don't like me commenting on videos, on the other hand you liked my comments about Fremer's video on the comparison OMA vs. AirForce 3 turntables. But I guess that was because my observations were to your taste.

Be that as it may, I can also simply shut up about videos.

As long as you shut up about me not posting ones.

Deal?

 

[Rexp]

Here's a digital version from 2005 of Psycho Killer, from Talking Heads 77 album, played on a high end $100,000 system (starts 2min in) Below is a budget turntable playing the 2020 reissue. Anyone's digital rig make this digital version match or beat the vinyl?

 

[Al M.]

Here's a digital version from 2005 of Psycho Killer, from Talking Heads 77 album, played on a high end $100,000 system (starts 2min in) Below is a budget turntable playing the 2020 reissue. Anyone's digital rig make this digital version match or beat the vinyl?

Without even having listened to this:

I suppose you do realize that a 2020 reissue of Talking Heads on vinyl is in all likelihood from a digital master.

So this is really comparing digital with digital, not digital with analog vinyl.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Here's a digital version from 2005 of Psycho Killer, from Talking Heads 77 album, played on a high end $100,000 system (starts 2min in) Below is a budget turntable playing the 2020 reissue. Anyone's digital rig make this digital version match or beat the vinyl?

So a digital youtube from a needledrop from possibly a digital master of a famous 1970’s new wave Talking Heads track (but unremarkable in terms of recording) compared to a random off the hip phone or video recording of maybe another version or master captured in a completely careless and on the run ad hoc way by an unknown phone or video recording setup in a noisy large hotel room at the traditionally most unreliable of sound environments… an audio show. I guess sonic comparisons just don’t get any more valid than that. I’m unsure what you are trying to establish with this comparison?

 

[Rexp]

So a digital youtube from a needledrop from possibly a digital master of a famous 1970’s new wave Talking Heads track (but unremarkable in terms of recording) compared to a random off the hip phone or video recording of maybe another version or master captured in a completely careless and on the run ad hoc way by an unknown phone or video recording setup in a noisy large hotel room at the traditionally most unreliable of sound environments… an audio show. I guess sonic comparisons just don’t get any more valid than that. I’m unsure what you are trying to establish with this comparison?

Sure its not perfect, does your digital playback sound better than or equal to the needledrop?
I'm not a vinyl only extremist nor a digital only extremist, I like both, depending on the master.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sure its not perfect, does your digital playback sound better than or equal to the needledrop?
I'm not a vinyl only extremist nor a digital only extremist, I like both, depending on the master.

Are you really proud of this as a valid comparison… really… what is it representative of at all… it’s so far way beyond not perfect… there is zero validation from the people who made the videos on how they did them and about how representative they are… it’s really a silly comparison and reflects no real quality of assessment… not because it’s video but because the controls are so poor.

 

[adrianywu]

At the end of the day, the digital vs analogue debate comes down to the source. If you talk about vinyl, you have to take into consideration the mastering process, which often introduces changes according to the whims of the engineer as well as the necessity for getting the music to fit onto one side of the LP. Mastering CDs and digital files also involve some manipulation, but it is a far less complicated affair. Therefore, the problem of vinyl is the variability of the quality of the source. Technically, digital has better S/N ratio, dynamic range and frequency response. When I make recordings by running a tape machine and a DSD A2D in parellel, the DSD often sounds indistinguishable to the mic feed, but sometimes the tape sounds more enjoyable.........

 

[Rexp]

Are you really proud of this as a valid comparison… really… what is it representative of at all… it’s so far way beyond not perfect… there is zero validation from the people who made the videos on how they did them and about how representative they are… it’s really a silly comparison and reflects no real quality of assessment… not because it’s video but because the controls are so poor.

So you're not going to tell us if your digital playback of this track sounds similar, better or worse than the needledrop. Why not?

 

[the sound of Tao]

So you're not going to tell us if your digital playback of this track sounds similar, better or worse than the needledrop. Why not?

Neither videos sound that good to me… but that tells me nothing really because the comparison is such a poor test of anything other than poor judgement in establishing methods of valid assessment.

So do you think this is a valid test of what and why… does this represent a quality standard of assessment process for you.

I have always said that the best analogue has the upper hand in sound quality… I’ve never said otherwise. I just think this is such a dodgy setup it’s just meaningless really. But if you’re proud of it go for it.

 

[Rexp]

Neither videos sound that good to me… but that tells me nothing really because the comparison is such a poor test of anything other than poor judgement in establishing methods of valid assessment.

So do you think this is a valid test of what and why… does this represent a quality standard of assessment process for you.

I have always said that the best analogue has the upper hand in sound quality… I’ve never said otherwise. I just think this is such a dodgy setup it’s just meaningless really. But if you’re proud of it go for it.

I am asking you to play this track on Tidal/Qobuz and compare it to the vinyl recording on YouTube.
When I do this the vinyl rip easily wins.
IME no digital playback solution can fix these crappy masters found on streaming services.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am asking you to play this track on Tidal/Qobuz and compare it to the vinyl recording on YouTube.
When I do this the vinyl rip easily wins.
IME no digital playback solution can fix these crappy masters found on streaming services.

But why would you choose such poor benchmarks and poor tests with such poor controls to create examples to assess with?

I’ve made no claims about the sound at my place in this.

I’ve asked only about why you think your chosen examples are representative and valid. You keep deflecting from the original and only point that I made.

 

[hopkins]

Here's a digital version from 2005 of Psycho Killer, from Talking Heads 77 album, played on a high end $100,000 system (starts 2min in)

The sound quality of this phone video is particularly terrible. You can't expect much from a video taken in a show with high ambient noise, as is the case above. You will probably get similar sound if you were to record a small Bluetooth speaker up close.

 

[Rexp]

The sound quality of this phone video is particularly terrible. You can't expect much from a video taken in a show with high ambient noise, as is the case above. You will probably get similar sound if you were to record a small Bluetooth speaker up close.

The 2nd track, by Billie Eilish, sounds good, so I wouldn't blame the video quality.

 

[hopkins]

The 2nd track, by Billie Eilish, sounds good, so I wouldn't blame the video quality.

I don't find that it sounds any better!

 

[AudioGod]

I'm seriously asking this .
Does anyone really think that vinyl ,.probably a 100 years old tech could be technically better Or equal to digital and especially hi-res files / streaming ?
You could love the sound of vinyl more , but no can claim it's a more accurate format .

 

[Rexp]

I don't find that it sounds any better!

Guess we hear different but we knew that already..

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I'm seriously asking this .
Does anyone really think that vinyl ,.probably a 100 years old tech could be technically better Or equal to digital and especially hi-res files / streaming ?
You could love the sound of vinyl more , but no can claim it's a more accurate format .

i'm as invested in digital as anyone, and i don't care about accuracy, i do care about elimination of digital distortion, as it's non musical and distracting. however, neither are as significant to musical rightness as how vinyl is more complete than digital. tape even more so. turns out complete is more significant in the issue of realism.

you can beat the drum of accurate at points in time, but it does not really have traction in the listening. and i love my digital.

 

[PeterA]

I'm seriously asking this .
Does anyone really think that vinyl ,.probably a 100 years old tech could be technically better Or equal to digital and especially hi-res files / streaming ?
You could love the sound of vinyl more , but no can claim it's a more accurate format .

Forget what you love and preference. Some people actually think an analog source actually sounds more like real music and voices than does a digital source, given the same system. Which format is more technically advanced may be the wrong question to ask. A better question in my opinion is: What format sounds closer to the original sound of the voices and instruments that we are trying to reproduce?

The concept of accuracy depends on the goal you are trying to achieve and as such needs more explanation. I always thought the big question with digital during the early stages of its development was "how accurate is accurate enough?" Did someone not listen to the song "Tom's Diner" to determine that answer? And now MSB has just released new firmware (technology?) that improves it further all these years later.