Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[AudioGod]

This is the same argument, the same diatribe that seems to happen on this (and other forums) time and time again.

At this point, I'll bow out, as folks seem to have their feet cemented into their own personal camps. This should never be a "superiority" thing. That's not the point of this hobby. What should be superior is to the end result as to what hits one's ears. Whether audio nirvana begins or ends at analog or digital? That's up to the listener and their own setup/preferences with regards to where they are at along their own personal audio journey.

I will no longer be contributing in this discussion within the near future due to the fact that it seems as if camps have been planted, and a discussion to advance our collective hobby is no longer involved. It is also at the point to where it's no longer fun to be involved in this discussion.

Dissecting audio into camps should never be a part of the discussions.

Tom

Maybe digital doesn't sound better *to you *
Which is perfectly OK
But what gets you closer to what the sound engineer heard in the the studio , that's Defintley digital and not analog

 

[AudioGod]

O

superior at what exactly?

it's really a greater degrees of accurate (digital) verses greater degrees of complete (analog) situation. and our evolved senses view complete as more genuine and attractive.

One man's "complete " is another's "colored sound "

 

[treitz3]

Maybe digital doesn't sound better *to you *
Which is perfectly OK
But what gets you closer to what the sound engineer heard in the the studio , that's Defintley digital and not analog

You are trying hard, it seems, to get me back into the conversation. Your attempts will not be successful. I have been there, done that.

I am honestly tired of wasting my time on the debate. Folks in each camp seem to have their feet in the concrete, unable to sway, or see the other side.

I will reiterate that I am out for the foreseeable future on this thread. This kind of debate is useless to me. It becomes a lose/lose situation and at the end of the day? Those folks with their feet in the concrete never seem to break free...

Tom

 

[Mike Lavigne]

O

One man's "complete " is another's "colored sound "

 

[Carlos269]

Acoustic music and all unaugmented animal sounds, including human singing, start out in the analog domain. All natural unaugmented animal hearing, including human hearing, are processed by an analog biological system.

It is hard to fathom the idea that the required A/D and D/A conversion adds either accuracy or precision.

Need to learn a little more about the auditory system. The Cochlear nucleus converts/transcodes mechanical stimuli to electrical signals for neuronal processing. The encoded/converted "digital" data from the inner ear relays the sound information to the nervous system. The synaptic transmission occur in discrete units, or quanta, in a multi step process that is spatially and temporally sequenced and not continuous, or “analog”.

 

[Al M.]

Some examples :
View attachment 119823View attachment 119824View attachment 119825

The dynamic range argument is pretty dumb, if you ask me. If you've never have heard great vinyl playback with explosive dynamics, that's too bad. I have, and it puts the argument to bed.

I have no axe to grind, nor any fish to fry here. That's because I'm a digital only person, and I will never have a vinyl front end. I'm just reporting what I'm hearing in friends' systems.

I am with Tom here. Everything has become so tribal, and further discussion won't resolve anything. If you enjoy vinyl more, fine. If you enjoy digital more, fine too. But don't think your "superior" opinion, whatever it may be, is the absolute truth. This hobby is too subjective for that. Nobody will convince anyone of anything.

People have tried to convince me of getting a vinyl rig. Why should I? I love my digital, and I can enjoy vinyl at friends' houses. And if anyone thinks my hearing capabilities are inferior because I personally prefer digital, let 'em have it. If it strokes their uber inflated ego, so be it. I don't give a flyin' youknowwhat.

 

[Another Johnson]

Need to learn a little more about the auditory system. The Cochlear nucleus converts/transcodes mechanical stimuli to electrical signals for neuronal processing. The encoded/converted "digital" data from the inner ear relays the sound information to the nervous system. The synaptic transmission occur is discrete units, or quanta, in a multi step process that is spatially and temporally sequenced and not continuous, or “analog”.

You forgot the snare drum finish. Yes, hearing and seeing are digital (photons, phonons etc).

When you know the standardized human bit depth and sampling rate, maybe the industry will be able to progress.

I’m out too ….

 

[hopkins]

Maybe digital doesn't sound better *to you *
Which is perfectly OK
But what gets you closer to what the sound engineer heard in the the studio , that's Defintley digital and not analog

Do you only listen to digital?

 

[PeterA]

superior at what exactly?

it's really a greater degrees of accurate (digital) verses greater degrees of complete (analog) situation. and our evolved senses view complete as more genuine and attractive. and if we are talking the best analog tape, then it's a whole different level beyond vinyl. just much more there there.

i do have very optimal digital. listen to it 70% of the time, and love it. YMMV.

Mike, it’s not my language, I was asking plasmod3 who made a claim to define it so that I understand his post better.

 

[PeterA]

Maybe digital doesn't sound better *to you *
Which is perfectly OK
But what gets you closer to what the sound engineer heard in the the studio , that's Defintley digital and not analog

Is that the goal of why we record a live music event and try to reproduce it? What if the digital we hear at home is very close to what the engineer heard yet it doesn’t sound like real music? Then what? Theoretically. Of course analog doesn’t sound exactly like real music either? They sound different and people have different opinions as to what sounds more real and they have different preferences. I don’t think anyone is going to convince anyone else otherwise.

 

[plasmod3]

Sure. I’m running a Taiko Extreme with the latest version of XDMS, Taiko’s Network Card + Switch (powered from a linear PSU), Triode Wire Ethernet, Shunyata Omega USB, fed into a Nagra HD DAC X (reviewed here ahead of the MSB). Oh and everything is powered off a Shunyata Denali with grounding provided by the ALTAIRA Signal Hubs (and Omega ground cords). You can’t get better or go higher (except for Wadax, but from what I’ve heard the Extreme sounds better).
[Not trying to brag - just to demonstrate that you can’t really get a better performing digital front end today. All causes of noise & jitter have been addressed. I don’t stream, only high res local file playback.
AND IT DOES NOT SOUND BETTER THAN VINYL

What are you running?

that is ....not top of the game. to give an idea my amps are the wavac sh833 rrp 450k usd. and thats just my amps. To get to the real top...we have to look past brand names and marketing hype....

 

[Rexp]

I disagree

Analogue does not sound better than digital and i have a top analogue setup sat tonearms ar koetsu dava carts 618 transformers etcetc. Digital contrary to popular belief is much much harder to setup than analogue. A lot more variables involved and a lot more subcomponents than digital to manage. One needs to hear a proper digital to get an idea of how it compares with analogue. Unfortunately because digital is so easy to set up but so hard to get right ....most if not the overwhelming majority of impressions comparing the 2 start up from a very very flawed and compromised basis.

Digital takes 3-5 times the amount of both money and time to setup properly.

Do you think it depends on the recording though or does your digital rig make poor digital recordings sound good. Also, are you using streaming services or files?

 

[plasmod3]

Define proper digital and proper analog. And the goal of reproduction. We record music and I assume we attempt to reproduce it.

Proper analogue is a proper tape setup like what Mike has and a few other members. knowing that you can then work out where digital should be . I can advise that digital outperforms.

While the rational for tape is that there are trillions of magnetic dust on the tape itself each dust point recording 1 piece of information which means by definition the resolution is infinite ...the truth is the recording head and the reading heads unfortunately do not have that kind of resolution to match, It's more a romanticism in a way . dont get me wrong i love it ! but the way the approach is thought of can often be exaggerated.

 

[plasmod3]

Do you think it depends on the recording though or does your digital rig make poor digital recordings sound good. Also, are you using streaming services or files?

streaming mostly. most of my recordings are more modern so recorded on digital to start with not an a2d conversion. For that kind of a recording there isnt a point going back to vinyl as the source is digital anyways. but comparing a modern record on vinyl vs one on digital the digital does win. wrt old vinyl that is analogue to start with - they are good i agree and i have even listened to some lacquer discs as well . most of whats there is the dynamisms and how quickly you can shift from highs to lows, that too is also possible and seen in my digital ....however it is much much harder to achieve for most systems. Details wise which is an easier goal i can confirm is not lacking on analogue vs digital .

To give an idea....for the network side and this is only 1 part of my digital setup. where we have nbn in australia - i use the coaxial cable off the st but with a holding plug installed using only the core wire to all the connection points without another metal layer.. The switch room is away from the music room with 3 layers of power filtration and 1 layer of active grounding. There are 3 linear power supplies - modified sean jacobs top of the line units and faradpower.

One lps for the nbn modem router , one lps for the switch which is a heavily modified draytek which runs ethernet to the main room. the draytek then has fiber to a melco that connects to a hp switch that supplies the rest of the house. dampening isolation etcetc. so just for the network alone there has been countless layers of experimenting with countless hours in there. A good digital has to start with the network. If you just run a single ethernet cable to the wall or the switch without any upstream work....of course your digital cant beat analogue. Most ppl do not optimise what is outside of the room.

by countless layers...for eg. simply the coaxial cable for the internet alone - i have audtitioned some 20 different cables.... the end result is easy but it took a lot of time and effort to get there. Simply buying equipment and just plugging it in regardless of the brand is not going to make digital better than analogue that is hopefully the message i am putting across here

 

[hopkins]

streaming mostly. most of my recordings are more modern so recorded on digital to start with not an a2d conversion. For that kind of a recording there isnt a point going back to vinyl as the source is digital anyways. but comparing a modern record on vinyl vs one on digital the digital does win. wrt old vinyl that is analogue to start with - they are good i agree and i have even listened to some lacquer discs as well . most of whats there is the dynamisms and how quickly you can shift from highs to lows, that too is also possible and seen in my digital ....however it is much much harder to achieve for most systems. Details wise which is an easier goal i can confirm is not lacking on analogue vs digital .

To give an idea....for the network side and this is only 1 part of my digital setup. where we have nbn in australia - i use the coaxial cable off the st but with a holding plug installed using only the core wire to all the connection points without another metal layer.. The switch room is away from the music room with 3 layers of power filtration and 1 layer of active grounding. There are 3 linear power supplies - modified sean jacobs top of the line units and faradpower.

One lps for the nbn modem router , one lps for the switch which is a heavily modified draytek which runs ethernet to the main room. the draytek then has fiber to a melco that connects to a hp switch that supplies the rest of the house. dampening isolation etcetc. so just for the network alone there has been countless layers of experimenting with countless hours in there. A good digital has to start with the network. If you just run a single ethernet cable to the wall or the switch without any upstream work....of course your digital cant beat analogue. Most ppl do not optimise what is outside of the room.

by countless layers...for eg. simply the coaxial cable for the internet alone - i have audtitioned some 20 different cables.... the end result is easy but it took a lot of time and effort to get there. Simply buying equipment and just plugging it in regardless of the brand is not going to make digital better than analogue that is hopefully the message i am putting across here

Funny how everyone who argues that digital is superior to analog is also convinced that this is the case because they have a unique digital solution that is so much better than all the others - all the others sounding "digital"

There is also a paradox in setting up a highly customized and sophisticated solution to end up using streaming services over which we have absolutely no control. Worst case, your network connection fails and you can't play music. Or the streaming service removes an album from their catalog. There are also countless examples where the album version offered on streaming services is simply inferior to other digital releases.

 

[AudioGod]

Do you only listen to digital?

Yes

 

[AudioGod]

The dynamic range argument is pretty dumb, if you ask me. If you've never have heard great vinyl playback with explosive dynamics, that's too bad. I have, and it puts the argument to bed.

I have no axe to grind, nor any fish to fry here. That's because I'm a digital only person, and I will never have a vinyl front end. I'm just reporting what I'm hearing in friends' systems.

I am with Tom here. Everything has become so tribal, and further discussion won't resolve anything. If you enjoy vinyl more, fine. If you enjoy digital more, fine too. But don't think your "superior" opinion, whatever it may be, is the absolute truth. This hobby is too subjective for that. Nobody will convince anyone of anything.

People have tried to convince me of getting a vinyl rig. Why should I? I love my digital, and I can enjoy vinyl at friends' houses. And if anyone thinks my hearing capabilities are inferior because I personally prefer digital, let 'em have it. If it strokes their uber inflated ego, so be it. I don't give a flyin' youknowwhat.

Is it dumb to claim a Bugatti with 1200hp is technically superior to a Toyota Corolla with 140 hp?
Same thing
Dynamic range is dynamic range
Distortion is distortion
And the numbers are what the numbers are

 

[hopkins]

Yes

Have you found speakers ?

$80K budget for Speakers

If i was in Finland i would go listen to these. If i had room for more speakers i would buy them my self. :) https://www.audio-markt.de/market/sonus-faber-aida-9285933033

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[AudioGod]

Have you found speakers ?

$80K budget for Speakers

If i was in Finland i would go listen to these. If i had room for more speakers i would buy them my self. :) https://www.audio-markt.de/market/sonus-faber-aida-9285933033

www.whatsbestforum.com

Not yet

 

[Rexp]

Funny how everyone who argues that digital is superior to analog is also convinced that this is the case because they have a unique digital solution that is so much better than all the others - all the others sounding "digital"

There is also a paradox in setting up a highly customized and sophisticated solution to end up using streaming services over which we have absolutely no control. Worst case, your network connection fails and you can't play music. Or the streaming service removes an album from their catalog. There are also countless examples where the album version offered on streaming services is simply inferior to other digital releases.

Yeah it's easy to be cynical when someone claims they've found the hidden treasure that is analogue sounding digital playback, I remember some joker on Audiophilestyle claiming his tweaked 80's Yamaha cd player was better than anything else.