Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Tangram]

your analog is reasonably priced in WBF terms. The matching and quality can be debated forever, bit at the price if well set up and using good records you should be able to beat digital easily. If your records are not good you will not be able to even spending higher, unless your digital sucks

Thanks. I think we are on the same page.

 

[Zeotrope]

Except, inexplicably, sometimes those vinyl remasterings of digital recordings played back on an analog system sound better than the digital recordings played back on a digital system.
For high-end audio purists like me "remarkably close" ain't nearly close enough. If we want to ascend the suspension of disbelief peak then no cost or inconvenience is too much to get there. For us, a miss by an inch ("remarkably close") is as bad as a miss by a mile

Just found this thread and apologies if this has been mentioned:
the “problem” with digital is not the D to A playback. Taiko, especially, has built an incredible platform for playback. The problem is in the conversion from A to D. Most studios have nothing close to a Taiko Extreme equivalent - meaning that the attention to detail for noise and jitter reduction is not to the same level as employed by leaders like Taiko and Nagra (HD DAC X).
And even when/if that happens, it’s still the act of converting the analog signal to digital, and back again, that will remove *something* from the original.

The purest and simplest path is often what’s best. And ultimately, we listen in analog, so keeping the signal analog will always be better.
That said, you unfortunately have to spend a lot more for analog to surpass digital. A Taiko Extreme and world-class DAC will set you back under $100k. I have not compared a $100k TT setup (TT, Tonearm, cart, phono stage); but I suspect the Taiko + DAC will surpass it in some ways.

 

[AudioGod]

Let me correct the title of the thread
"Can vinyl get to digital sound and at what price"?

 

[Zeotrope]

Let me correct the title of the thread
"Can vinyl get to digital sound and at what price"?

More like ”at what (min.) price does vinyl exceed digital“?

 

[AudioGod]

More like ”at what (min.) price does vinyl exceed digital“?

At no price
Digital is superior to vinyl in just about every way possible

 

[treitz3]

For certain aspects, yes. No how and in no way, shape or form is that what is the truth though. You don't know what you are missing.

Tom

 

[Zeotrope]

At no price
Digital is superior to vinyl in just about every way possible

No, that’s not at all correct. We will agree to disagree. You have clearly never heard a well setup world-class vinyl or reel system.
I have what’s likely the world’s best analog playback system and the world’s best digital playback system. I own both and they are in my home, so there’s zero bias.

Without a doubt, analog sounds better. Anyone who hears the same album, mastered from the same source (eg, 2xHD), agrees. It’s not close. There’s no noise, and there’s no lack of low or high frequency with vinyl. It’s all there.

You think digital is great (and it is); but when you hear vinyl on a great system, you understand what you’re missing with digital.
I would avoid even listening if you don’t want to be forever disappointed with your digital system. Without comparing, digital can sound great. And there’s a ton of convenience that analog doesn’t have.

 

[AudioGod]

No, that’s not at all correct. We will agree to disagree. You have clearly never heard a well setup world-class vinyl or reel system.
I have what’s likely the world’s best analog playback system and the world’s best digital playback system. I own both and they are in my home, so there’s zero bias.

Without a doubt, analog sounds better. Anyone who hears the same album, mastered from the same source (eg, 2xHD), agrees. It’s not close. There’s no noise, and there’s no lack of low or high frequency with vinyl. It’s all there.

You think digital is great (and it is); but when you hear vinyl on a great system, you understand what you’re missing with digital.
I would avoid even listening if you don’t want to be forever disappointed with your digital system. Without comparing, digital can sound great. And there’s a ton of convenience that analog doesn’t have.

Technically vinyl doesn't come close to digital
Liking or disliking the sound of analog or digital more , is a different story .
But talking strictly about the technical specs , digital is so superior it's not even funny .
Obviously you could like the analog sound more and I wouldn't argue with you if it's more organic /musical sounding
But as for accuracy , digital is the way to go
That's the closest you're going to get to the original master.

 

[treitz3]

The thing is, no one can listen to, "technical". We all listen to music. It appears as if your definition of accuracy differs from ours.

FWIW, I love both. For the attributes and deficiancies that they both bring to the table. I can enjoy both for what they have to offer but to state that digital is superior to vinyl (as a blanket statement?).

Sorry, many others and I cannot subscribe to that line of thought.

Tom

 

[Zeotrope]

Technically vinyl doesn't come close to digital
Liking or disliking the sound of analog or digital more , is a different story .
But talking strictly about the technical specs , digital is so superior it's not even funny .
Obviously you could like the analog sound more and I wouldn't argue with you if it's more organic /musical sounding
But as for accuracy , digital is the way to go
That's the closest you're going to get to the original master.

In theory you are correct, but nothing is ever that simple.
Analog (*on a well set up [unfortunately] expensive TT/Cart/Phono) is not colored - it’s not “warmer” - it’s just closer to the real thing. And if that’s your goal: reproducing music so it gets as close as possible to live music, analog wins hands down.

In theory you have a “bit perfect” digital file; but in reality, jitter, noise, and above all else: the act of converting it to digital and then back to analog is where you’ve lost the original’s nuances. And you can never recover those - it doesn’t matter how good your streamer and DAC are.

 

[PeterA]

Technically vinyl doesn't come close to digital
Liking or disliking the sound of analog or digital more , is a different story .
But talking strictly about the technical specs , digital is so superior it's not even funny .
Obviously you could like the analog sound more and I wouldn't argue with you if it's more organic /musical sounding
But as for accuracy , digital is the way to go
That's the closest you're going to get to the original master.

there’s plenty of good sounding digital.

Theoretically, if digital is so superior technically, how is it possible that someone can think that analog actually sounds more like live music? Is it really technically superior, or is it technically just different.

 

[Another Johnson]

Acoustic music and all unaugmented animal sounds, including human singing, start out in the analog domain. All natural unaugmented animal hearing, including human hearing, are processed by an analog biological system.

It is hard to fathom the idea that the required A/D and D/A conversion adds either accuracy or precision.

 

[AudioGod]

there’s plenty of good sounding digital.

Theoretically, if digital is so superior technically, how is it possible that someone can think that analog actually sounds more like live music? Is it really technically superior, or is it technically just different.

Your benchmark is wrong
"Live music "can sound really bad in the real world .
The goal of a system/source is to reproduce the recorded music without adding or distracting anything
Basically to hear what the engineers in the studio heard .
If that's your goal , then digital is the only way to go.
I belive

 

[plasmod3]

No, that’s not at all correct. We will agree to disagree. You have clearly never heard a well setup world-class vinyl or reel system.
I have what’s likely the world’s best analog playback system and the world’s best digital playback system. I own both and they are in my home, so there’s zero bias.

Without a doubt, analog sounds better. Anyone who hears the same album, mastered from the same source (eg, 2xHD), agrees. It’s not close. There’s no noise, and there’s no lack of low or high frequency with vinyl. It’s all there.

You think digital is great (and it is); but when you hear vinyl on a great system, you understand what you’re missing with digital.
I would avoid even listening if you don’t want to be forever disappointed with your digital system. Without comparing, digital can sound great. And there’s a ton of convenience that analog doesn’t have.

I disagree

Analogue does not sound better than digital and i have a top analogue setup sat tonearms ar koetsu dava carts 618 transformers etcetc. Digital contrary to popular belief is much much harder to setup than analogue. A lot more variables involved and a lot more subcomponents than digital to manage. One needs to hear a proper digital to get an idea of how it compares with analogue. Unfortunately because digital is so easy to set up but so hard to get right ....most if not the overwhelming majority of impressions comparing the 2 start up from a very very flawed and compromised basis.

Digital takes 3-5 times the amount of both money and time to setup properly.

 

[AudioGod]

Some examples :

 

[Another Johnson]

Your benchmark is wrong
"Live music "can sound really bad in the real world .
The goal of a system/source is to reproduce the recorded music without adding or distracting anything
Basically to hear what the engineers in the studio heard .
If that's your goal , then digital is the only way to go.
I belive

Why would someone choose to listen to live music that sounded really bad?

I agree that live music is a nebulous standard, but it is the best we have.

FWIW, I love the advantages of both. And I enjoy both. For me the goal is great music in my home. If the sound is great too, that’s perfect.

 

[treitz3]

This is the same argument, the same diatribe that seems to happen on this (and other forums) time and time again.

At this point, I'll bow out, as folks seem to have their feet cemented into their own personal camps. This should never be a "superiority" thing. That's not the point of this hobby. What should be superior is to the end result as to what hits one's ears. Whether audio nirvana begins or ends at analog or digital? That's up to the listener and their own setup/preferences with regards to where they are at along their own personal audio journey.

I will no longer be contributing in this discussion within the near future due to the fact that it seems as if camps have been planted, and a discussion to advance our collective hobby is no longer involved. It is also at the point to where it's no longer fun to be involved in this discussion.

Dissecting audio into camps should never be a part of the discussions.

Tom

 

[Zeotrope]

I disagree

Analogue does not sound better than digital and i have a top analogue setup sat tonearms ar koetsu dava carts 618 transformers etcetc. Digital contrary to popular belief is much much harder to setup than analogue. A lot more variables involved and a lot more subcomponents than digital to manage. One needs to hear a proper digital to get an idea of how it compares with analogue. Unfortunately because digital is so easy to set up but so hard to get right ....most if not the overwhelming majority of impressions comparing the 2 start up from a very very flawed and compromised basis.

Digital takes 3-5 times the amount of both money and time to setup properly.

Sure. I’m running a Taiko Extreme with the latest version of XDMS, Taiko’s Network Card + Switch (powered from a linear PSU), Triode Wire Ethernet, Shunyata Omega USB, fed into a Nagra HD DAC X (reviewed here ahead of the MSB). Oh and everything is powered off a Shunyata Denali with grounding provided by the ALTAIRA Signal Hubs (and Omega ground cords). You can’t get better or go higher (except for Wadax, but from what I’ve heard the Extreme sounds better).
[Not trying to brag - just to demonstrate that you can’t really get a better performing digital front end today. All causes of noise & jitter have been addressed. I don’t stream, only high res local file playback.
AND IT DOES NOT SOUND BETTER THAN VINYL

What are you running?

 

[PeterA]

I disagree

Analogue does not sound better than digital and i have a top analogue setup sat tonearms ar koetsu dava carts 618 transformers etcetc. Digital contrary to popular belief is much much harder to setup than analogue. A lot more variables involved and a lot more subcomponents than digital to manage. One needs to hear a proper digital to get an idea of how it compares with analogue. Unfortunately because digital is so easy to set up but so hard to get right ....most if not the overwhelming majority of impressions comparing the 2 start up from a very very flawed and compromised basis.

Digital takes 3-5 times the amount of both money and time to setup properly.

Define proper digital and proper analog. And the goal of reproduction. We record music and I assume we attempt to reproduce it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

there’s plenty of good sounding digital.

Theoretically, if digital is so superior technically, how is it possible that someone can think that analog actually sounds more like live music? Is it really technically superior, or is it technically just different.

superior at what exactly?

it's really a greater degrees of accurate (digital) verses greater degrees of complete (analog) situation. and our evolved senses view complete as more genuine and attractive. and if we are talking the best analog tape, then it's a whole different level beyond vinyl. just much more there there.

i do have very optimal digital. listen to it 70% of the time, and love it. YMMV.