Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Another Johnson]

@jbr7
The equipment and media rankings and arguments for “what’s best” only apply to the rankers’ setup and value system.
Enjoy your CD/SACD collection!. AND your vinyl collection. They can both be grand!

 

[hopkins]

For anyone wondering what all the fuss is about vinyl. Here's a visual demonstration of the emotional impact it can have if you use the right hardware (Start at 51.20):

Live Multitest - affordable (MAX 1000 Euro) phono pre-amps! - Part 1

We are going to test some affordable phono pre-amps. Yes... we finally are doing it! We have a couple of cool pre-amps to listen to. Brands that are featurin...

www.youtube.com

On a side note, the streaming version of "A Change is Gonna Come" is atrocious - at least the one I found on Qobuz. The stereo version is a disaster and the mono version is not much better.

 

[ScottK]

Unfortunately, to get this quality the price was quite steep, even though the equipment involved is used. I am very gratified with how things are sounding. I hope this trend will continue as I attempt to wean myself from ownership of physical media, lol.

I have recently had a similar experience. Upgraded my DAC to a MSB Reference and as you say I have reached parity with many (not all) LP's. Ultimately it's the mastering that mostly determines the SQ IMO. That said I find I'm still listening to a lot of vinyl because it often sounds more "natural" to my ears. Like you I have a rather large LP collection. However, If I were just getting into audio today with no library I don't think I'd go vinyl ?

 

[ssfas]

I always felt that a good vinyl pressing sounded better than a cd, no ifs, ands, or buts. That opinion is currently being challenged by some recent changes to my audio setup. Because I'm running out of space in my apartment to store media, I decided to investigate the online digital world in an attempt to cut down on ownership of physical material. I own about 1500 LPs and a like number of cds.

A fortuitous confluence of circumstances enabled me to join the digital world in a big way, with the acquisition of a full, but used, dCS Vivaldi stack. My attempt to cut down on physical media has been in vain so far, as the Vivaldi Transport has SACD capability, which I never had before. Naturally, I purchased 10 SACDs to see how they sounded, lol. I was pleased that not only did they sound wonderful, but was also shocked that many of my normal cds sounded quite vinyl-like when listening through this setup. I had difficulty discerning a difference between vinyl and cds on many recordings.

I have only briefly listened to streaming audio from one of the main streaming services. However, I'm impressed with the audio quality I've heard so far, using this format.

Unfortunately, to get this quality the price was quite steep, even though the equipment involved is used. I am very gratified with how things are sounding. I hope this trend will continue as I attempt to wean myself from ownership of physical media, lol.

I remember listening to the full dCS Vivaldi system at a dCS demo when it came out, I think in 2013. It was a lot better sounding than my Linn Akurate DS. The music used was CD, Mozart symphonies/Makerras on Linn and Nickel Creek's first album.

You clearly have a vinyl bias, which is fine. I find this digital vs. vinyl misses half the story - the recording process. The earliest Denon PCM recorders in the early 1970s were, I think, 14-bit PCM, which were used to produce vinyl and were considered a great step forward at the time! It was then 16-bit PCM recording. dCS's main contribution to the audio world was probably their development of high resolution PCM and DSD D/D converters, which provided engineers vastly more data scope in the editing and production process of digital releases.

I was reminded of this when looking at the new DDG Originals vinyl releases, including some recordings from Gilels. The latest batch include one from his incomplete Beethoven sonata cycle. The last two releases (at least) before his death were digitally recorded, released on both CD and vinyl. The final one, the op. 106 sonata, won Gramophone's Recording of the year 1984. Gilels did a tour to promote this recording, I heard his performance in London. What do you do about great digital recordings released on vinyl? I bought the CD at the time.

Even as late as 1987 there was some great new vinyl, this one I think resulted Gimmell being the first independent label to win the Label of of the Year award.

This Josquin series was only completed in 2021. The final recording, after 34 years, also won multiple awards.

I have 1,000+ vinyl, 1,000 ripped CDs and have streamed for 13 years. I try not to let formats make my musical choices.

 

[Tangram]

“Can Digital Get to Vinyl and at What Price?”

I am going to answer a bit cheekily (to make a point) and say emphatically yes - at about a thousand bucks AND BELOW.

At entry-level prices digital beats vinyl every time. But high-end vinyl rigs that cost the same as a new compact car and above are hard for digital to beat. A friend who has abandoned his vinyl in favour of streaming had his confidence shaken when he came by for a listening session recently. He’d just spent three years researching DACs, pulled the trigger on one, but went home questioning his decision.

 

[ssfas]

“Can Digital Get to Vinyl and at What Price?”

I am going to answer a bit cheekily (to make a point) and say emphatically yes - at about a thousand bucks AND BELOW.

At entry-level prices digital beats vinyl every time. But high-end vinyl rigs that cost the same as a new compact car and above are hard for digital to beat. A friend who has abandoned his vinyl in favour of streaming had his confidence shaken when he came by for a listening session recently. He’d just spent three years researching DACs, pulled the trigger on one, but went home questioning his decision.

What sort of a friend are you? You should have played your worst vinyl and reinforced his decision (cheeky emoji).

Otherwise, I fully agree with your comment. Another angle is you could say that the best vinyl is probably better than the best digital, but the worst vinyl is way worse than the worst digital. If you use both without prejudice or bias, you can enjoy the best of both worlds. Many of my favourite performers have never released on vinyl anyway - should I not buy their recordings?

p.s. Can I swap my car for your turntable and cartridge?

 

[jbr7]

Can you please give some examples of good vinyl pressings?

Here are some of the vinyl pressings in my collection that, to my ears, sound very good and usually get a good response when played for guests. I don't think any of them will be a surprise, as they seem to be popular with audiophiles.

From Analogue Productions, the following 45 rpm pressings:
"Elvis' Golden Records", Vol 3, Elvis Presley.
"Time Out", The Dave Brubeck Quartet.
"Folk Singer", Muddy Waters.
"Moanin', Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers.
"A Caddy for Daddy", Hank Mobley.
"The Hot Spot", Original Motion Picture Soundtrack.

Analogue Productions, 33 rpm:
"Boss Tenor", Gene Ammons.

From MoFi, 45 rpm pressing:
"Dire Straits", Dire Straits.

Blue Note Tone Poet, 180 gram vinyl series, 33 rpm:
"Bring It Home to Me", Blue Mitchell.
"The Latin Bit", Grant Green.

"Neil Young Greatest Hits", Neil Young. Reprise, two LP edition, 33 rpm.

There are more, but I consider these titles to be a representative sample.

 

[Rexp]

“Can Digital Get to Vinyl and at What Price?”

I am going to answer a bit cheekily (to make a point) and say emphatically yes - at about a thousand bucks AND BELOW.

At entry-level prices digital beats vinyl every time. But high-end vinyl rigs that cost the same as a new compact car and above are hard for digital to beat. A friend who has abandoned his vinyl in favour of streaming had his confidence shaken when he came by for a listening session recently. He’d just spent three years researching DACs, pulled the trigger on one, but went home questioning his decision.

Nope, a budget vinyl rig will beat a high end digital rig if the vinyl master is better.

 

[ssfas]

Nope, a budget vinyl rig will beat a high end digital rig if the vinyl master is better.

As I'm new here, can you define "budget"? I need a frame of reference.

 

[billeames]

I find in my system using a Clearaudio Master Innovation turntable (or most of them of north of $30000), all vinyls sound much better than CD with some (few) exceptions.

Absolute Sound magazine had a list of recommended LP's in the 1980's. Most Reiner /Chicago SO RCA, Many Mercury LP's. (HP superdiscs I think).

Philips has great ones in my opinion. 1960's/1970's.

In my opinion ,some good ones: Marriner Handel Messiah Decca, Brahms Piano Concerto 1 Gilels/Jochum Berliner Philharmoniker DG,

I continue to wonder if Esoteric Grandioso K1X or K1X SE is somewhat equivalent to an over $20K turntable.

Bill

 

[Rexp]

As I'm new here, can you define "budget"? I need a frame of reference.

Less than $1000 all in.

 

[ssfas]

I find in my system using a Clearaudio Master Innovation turntable (or most of them of north of $30000), all vinyls sound much better than CD with some (few) exceptions.

Absolute Sound magazine had a list of recommended LP's in the 1980's. Most Reiner /Chicago SO RCA, Many Mercury LP's. (HP superdiscs I think).

Philips has great ones in my opinion. 1960's/1970's.

In my opinion ,some good ones: Marriner Handel Messiah Decca, Brahms Piano Concerto 1 Gilels/Jochum Berliner Philharmoniker DG,

I continue to wonder if Esoteric Grandioso K1X or K1X SE is somewhat equivalent to an over $20K turntable.

Bill

The so-called "Marriner Handel Messiah Decca" was done by the Argo label, owned by Decca but independently run. It was published under 3 different labels.

Marriner and his St Martins-in-the-Fields Orchestra started recording at St John's Smith Square in 1970. St Martins and St Johns are similar buildings, consecrated in 1725 and 1728 respectively. Different architects. St John's took a direct hit from a bomb in 1941 and was only reinstated and reopened in 1969. Being baroque buildings, they are most suited to baroque music. Neither are heated, which makes a big difference to the sound. This Messiah was recorded in July 1976, when London was in the middle of an historic heatwave. I went to a very cold Matthew Passion at St John's a few years ago (Nicolas Mulroy Evangelist) that was simply astonishingly good.

My last Messiah was a very cold one, last December at St Martin's (The Sixteen with Hilary Cronin, Nick Pritchard, Hugh Cutting) that was great. I had a warm one before that, in a modern acoustic hall (Pinnock at the Barbican), not the same. I feel sorry for Messiah fans who live in Florida.

Many of those Argo ASMF Marriner 1970s recordings are truly excellent, just about all recorded at St John's. If you want the vinyl, you can pick them up very cheap.

Not many recorded there in the last 30 years, but this is a good one.

 

[gadawg58]

For me if you are talking about comparable levels of digital and analog there are some types of recordings I like better on digital and others that I like better on vinyl. Also I think the mastering of an album has an impact on which format sounds better. That said in the budget realm budget analog has always sounded better to me than budget digital. This is all highly subjective clearly and I’m not sure there is a “right” answer. Listen to what you like best and enjoy the music!

George

 

[billeames]

Hello

Here is my opinion. To be as good as vinyl it takes almost 70k. That is the Esoteric Grandioso K1x and G1x (clock). Reported to me by a Grandioso dealer. According to him a Vinyl challenger.

CH precision C1.2 D1.5 is my direct 1st hand experience. Vinyl challenger. almost 86k i think

Rossini Apex and clock is less good but still quite good.

My current CD player Simaudio Andromeda. Learn to enjoy it at a lower performance level. Good dynamics, separate power supply. Less detail than Esoteric k01x.

Esoteric K01x good detail, quite good, less dynamic than the Clearaudio Master Innovation (MI) or Andromeda. Less presence than MI.

Being happy with what I have, may be what I have to do.

Bill

 

[adrianywu]

Let me be a bit cheeky here and ask this question. From the 1950s until the mid-1970s, the high end source was not vinyl but reel to reel tape, initially 2 track 7.5 ips, and later 4 track 7.5 ips (I won't include 3.75 ips, which was "budget"). In those days, albums on tape would cost 2 to 3 times that of the equivalent LP. If it is true that you need a vinyl rig that cost >70K to beat digital, I wonder if you might do better with a open reel player (either one of the new ones, or a refurbished Studer/Revox or Technics) playing these old tapes ?

 

[chuck]

Playback Designs isn‘t compelling

On my system, the Playback Designs MPT8/MPD8 digital sounds better than vinyl. What systems have you heard the Playback Designs?

 

[Another Johnson]

Just a comment …
There are so many ways digital and vinyl can independently go wrong, I don’t see how any valid generalized assertion can be made.

Just the power cords and cables can swing it one way or the other. The line stage vs phono preamp plus line stage are factors. The actual digital data path and the reliability of the isp is another. I won’t enumerate all the issues.

For whatever reason, It seems emotionally important to pick a tribe and discuss this apples to oranges comparison ad nauseam.

If one is less good than the other in your system, work on the one that’s less good. I swear they’ve played leap frog in my system for the last 30 years.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Let me be a bit cheeky here and ask this question. From the 1950s until the mid-1970s, the high end source was not vinyl but reel to reel tape, initially 2 track 7.5 ips, and later 4 track 7.5 ips (I won't include 3.75 ips, which was "budget"). In those days, albums on tape would cost 2 to 3 times that of the equivalent LP. If it is true that you need a vinyl rig that cost >70K to beat digital, I wonder if you might do better with a open reel player (either one of the new ones, or a refurbished Studer/Revox or Technics) playing these old tapes ?

Commercial Tapes back then were not better than LP’s , especially D2D Lp’s . It would take getting custom tapes , back then you could buy such from recording studios if you knew “someone” then this kind of cheating push tape out a bit , well unless you got a direct from tape to acetate to compare then it was game on again ..

Very system dependent ..!!!


Regards

 

[Rexp]

Just a comment …
There are so many ways digital and vinyl can independently go wrong, I don’t see how any valid generalized assertion can be made.

Just the power cords and cables can swing it one way or the other. The line stage vs phono preamp plus line stage are factors. The actual digital data path and the reliability of the isp is another. I won’t enumerate all the issues.

For whatever reason, It seems emotionally important to pick a tribe and discuss this apples to oranges comparison ad nauseam.

If one is less good than the other in your system, work on the one that’s less good. I swear they’ve played leap frog in my system for the last 30 years.

Unfortunately your comment gives false hope to many folks who spend time and money trying to make poor digital recordings sound good, a never ending quest for something that doesn't exist.

 

[Al M.]

Unfortunately your comment gives false hope to many folks who spend time and money trying to make poor digital recordings sound good, a never ending quest for something that doesn't exist.

Fortunately, most classical digital recordings sound good to excellent, so no complaints here. That's the music I listen to most.

Pop/rock recordings may be a different matter, but in some cases also there it helps to seek out the best mastering. For example, CDs of Black Sabbath's debut album range from absolutely atrocious -- apparently taken off a master for vinyl with uncorrected (!) RIAA equalization -- to outstanding in sound.

So, no worries about false hope here.