All wave guides provide a little gain. If they didn’t you would never be able to cross them over close enough to a woofer .
Can one find realism in box speakers that cost less than $150K after experiencing dynamics of horns and horn-type speakers?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Dear TangI don't really know about how much my speakers fall short of the very top vintage. Maybe it does may be it does not to my ears if I have a chance to hear the holy grail vintage horns. But ddk is right that with mush much less money I spent on my Cessaro I could definitely get the horns in my radar that could have as excellent sound or better than my Cessaro. (Not the Living Voice because I don't think they sound better than my Cessaro.) The thing about big Cessaro is once you buy it you cannot sell it. It is too big, heavy, expensive, require large size room and Ralph to assemble and disassemble it. People who wants to buy a big Cessaro are well to do that dont buy used modern audio either. You buy big Cessaro you are stuck with it...luckily they come with excellent sound. Audioquattr understand what I am talking about.
If I want to construct another system from scratch right now, it will take no more than one fourth of what I have been spending in audio gears for the last three years. And the sound will be no less good than what I have right now. For less than $100,000 you can even get the vintage horns system with the required amplifications with potential to be one of the best if you know who to talk to.
Tang
Can you elaborate on such a system?
Yeah. Unfortunately proper horn loading just needs a lot of horn. So no normal folks (me included of course!) can really ever experience it. Imagine a 20hz horn - will need to be humongous.
Yes, I now remember, when I asked the designer of my speakers (Reference 3A Reflector) why they had more treble output -- a good thing -- than my old ones (Reference 3A DeCapo BE), he said it was because of the tweeter wave guide.
It's hard to say if there is an increase in overall power as a result of improving mechanical impedance match with air as horns do, or if the output is simply concentrated as a result of the directionality the waveguide imposes.
You need 13.5ft for a horn to act as a horn at 20hz. Longer might be a little more horn like. At 20hz and 13.5ft all of that 20hz is shooting in one direction. That might be the best way to make a neighbor despise you if it's pointed at them.
"It's hard to say if there is an increase in overall power as a result of improving mechanical impedance match with air as horns do, or if the output is simply concentrated as a result of the directionality the waveguide imposes. "
Depends on the type is it Constant Directivity or is it relatively flat on axis.
If it is CD then you need electrical EQ to counteract the mass roll off in a compression driver. If you use electrical EQ with a CD horn/ waveguide you get even coverage across the entire bandwidth and a relatively flat power response.
If it is flat on axis with no EQ what you have is the horn/waveguide that is using directivity to compensate for the mass roll off so what you end up with is a falling power response with quite pronounced beaming in the upper octaves
Rob
Depends on the type is it Constant Directivity or is it relatively flat on axis.
If it is CD then you need electrical EQ to counteract the mass roll off in a compression driver. If you use electrical EQ with a CD horn/ waveguide you get even coverage across the entire bandwidth and a relatively flat power response.
If it is flat on axis with no EQ what you have is the horn/waveguide that is using directivity to compensate for the mass roll off so what you end up with is a falling power response with quite pronounced beaming in the upper octaves
Rob
Last edited:
"It's hard to say if there is an increase in overall power as a result of improving mechanical impedance match with air as horns do, or if the output is simply concentrated as a result of the directionality the waveguide imposes. "
Depends on the type is it Constant Directivity or is it relatively flat on axis.
If it is CD then you need electrical EQ to counteract the mass roll off in a compression driver. If you use electrical EQ with a CD horn/ waveguide you get even coverage across the entire bandwidth and a relatively flat power response.
If it is flat on axis with no EQ what you have is the horn/waveguide that is using directivity to compensate for the mass roll off so what you end up with is a falling power response with quite pronounced beaming in the upper octaves
Rob
Agreed... my comment was on a dome tweeter in a shallow waveguide (or in a coax application) vs flat baffle.
If it is CD [constant directivity] then you need electrical EQ to counteract the mass roll off in a compression driver. If you use electrical EQ with a CD horn/ waveguide you get even coverage across the entire bandwidth and a relatively flat power response.
If it is flat on axis with no EQ what you have is the horn/waveguide that is using directivity to compensate for the mass roll off so what you end up with is a falling power response with quite pronounced beaming in the upper octaves
Rob
Very well explained.
My understanding is that, particularly at the top end of the horn's passband, the situation is more or less a trade-off between the on-axis frequency response and the radiation pattern width. In other words, assuming the same driver and same ballpark horn length, we can theoretically gain about 6 dB of on-axis efficiency by halving the area that the radiation pattern covers. Sort of like tightening the pattern of a garden hose nozzle increases the pressure where the water hits, but doesn't really change the total amount of water that comes out. Does this sound right to you?
Last edited:
Hello Duke
Thanks, I agree with that and you can see it in measurements. If you go through on axis sensitivity measurements of horn families where the directivity changes you can see what you suggest. We used to call horns long, medium and short throw. Where the long throw were narrow directivity patterns, short throw wide and medium would be a hybrid between these extremes.
Take a look at this data sheet.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2360-series.htm
The 2360 is 90x50 and the 2366 is 50x27 so very close to half and sure enough the on axis spl difference is 5dB. These are CD horns so you have uniform coverage after EQ.
I like short throw CD horns over traditional flares such as a exponential.
Rob
Thanks, I agree with that and you can see it in measurements. If you go through on axis sensitivity measurements of horn families where the directivity changes you can see what you suggest. We used to call horns long, medium and short throw. Where the long throw were narrow directivity patterns, short throw wide and medium would be a hybrid between these extremes.
Take a look at this data sheet.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2360-series.htm
The 2360 is 90x50 and the 2366 is 50x27 so very close to half and sure enough the on axis spl difference is 5dB. These are CD horns so you have uniform coverage after EQ.
I like short throw CD horns over traditional flares such as a exponential.
Rob
Hello Duke
Thanks, I agree with that and you can see it in measurements. If you go through on axis sensitivity measurements of horn families where the directivity changes you can see what you suggest. We used to call horns long, medium and short throw. Where the long throw were narrow directivity patterns, short throw wide and medium would be a hybrid between these extremes.
Take a look at this data sheet.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2360-series.htm
The 2360 is 90x50 and the 2366 is 50x27 so very close to half and sure enough the on axis spl difference is 5dB. These are CD horns so you have uniform coverage after EQ.
I like short throw CD horns over traditional flares such as a exponential.
Rob
Thank you for your insights and for the link. I had been going on that assumption and saw an opportunity to ask someone who would actually know. I have virtually no hands-on experience with "traditional" horn profiles, aside from measuring a few and concluding they didn't meet my needs.
My preferences are similar to yours; I've been using relatively short-throw "waveguide-style" horns (as opposed to the diffraction horns shown at the link). Lately I'm looking into raising my efficiency a bit, which implies going to a somewhat narrower pattern, but I plan to stay with constant directivity as much as I can.
You have some cool looking speakers on your page! Some of them are a bit Roy Allison to me. Make the room work for you. Do what I did so I could run a 98db woofers cheat as in Bi amp. Its a balance once you start driving woofer efficiency up sooner or later the last octave just drops out.Have you looked at the newer ring compression drivers. They seem to have more output up top. I am sure you know about Earl Geedes Summas Not sure what his system sensitivity was but that design seems to be what you might be thinking about. I think his Oblate Spheroid wave guides were 60 degrees?? Hard to find something like that off the shelf so to speak. Good luck!
Rob
Rob
Thank you sir! Prosound pays my bills, it's steady income, which high-end home audio never was for me.
My most interesting home audio stuff isn't up there in part because there's still some evolution going on, but lately I've been working with 15" SEOS waveguides and 12" woofers. If you're really bored, here's some online commentary on the system we showed at RMAF last year: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160092.0 (scroll down to the bottom of the first post)
Lately I've been cheating and using subwoofers... four of them actually. I make a little four-piece subwoofer system.
I am aware of a few ring compression drivers from BMS and Eminence and Celestion... but I may have missed some! Any hints as to what I should be looking at?
About eighteen years ago I contacted Earl Geddes and asked him to design a 15" diameter, 90-degree pattern waveguide for me, to be crossed over to a 15" woofer at the frequency where the woofer's pattern had narrowed to 90 degrees. He told me this was similar enough to something he'd been wanting to do for years that we could join forces, with me buying parts and him doing the engineering. Unfortunately I ran out of funds and Earl had to complete the project on his own, and that was the Summa. The Summa is of course 100% Earl's design, I just happened to be barking up the right tree at the right time. Later I was briefly involved again, doing the assembly of a few early pairs of Summas.
To the best of my knowledge all of Earl's speakers used a 90 degree pattern Oblate Spheroid. I don't think he did anything with a 60 degree pattern, but I could be wrong.
My little four-piece subwoofer system, which I call the Swarm, uses Earl Geddes' ideas with his permission.
Back in the day a company called DDS made fiberglass horns and waveguides, including a 1" throat, 10.5" diameter, 90 degree pattern unit that looked a lot like one of Earl's oblate spheroids but with a larger radius round-over at the mouth (and correspondingly the waveguide itself was a bit smaller and lost pattern control a bit higher than one of Earl's would have). I believe it was designed by Mark Engebretson. I used them until they became unobtainium.
I then found a horn that measured pretty good and wasn't diffractive, turns out it was the one being used in the Econowave. I would have preferred a bolt-on rather than screw-on attachment for the compression driver, but overall it worked well.
Then along came the SEOS horns, and imo they are quite good. I pattern-match with the woofer in the horizontal plane, and then add a rear-firing tweeter to compensate the reverberant field for the horn's reduced coverage in the vertical plane. Thus far my best SEOS-based designs are imo outperforming my best vintage OS-based designs, but that may be because I have picked up a few tricks along the way.
Over the past year or so I have been investigating making, or having made, my own oblate spheroid waveguides. In fact within the next month or so I hope to be testing out the first samples.
Any chance you might attend T.H.E. Show in Long Beach in early June? If so, I'd sure like to meet you.
Last edited:
Hello Duke
So would I that would be fun to have a chat. Well if it's Long Beach NY than sure! I am on the wrong coast unfortunately.
It must be a real pain having to finds sources, go through the effort and then loose them. Doing your own sure makes a lot more sense.
I have never heard the SEOS horns have to check them out one of these days. Nice idea on the rear tweeter. I just got a pair of HEILS. What a great sale that was! First experience at home with a dipole top end. Have them biamped with a 12" and a notch to tame the peak. It's different for sure but I like it, sounds nice.
As far as rings here is a paper you might be interested in. No idea about cost or availability although seeing how they handle M2 parts?
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...aper-on-Dual-Diaphragm-Drivers-2430-2415-2420
Rob
So would I that would be fun to have a chat. Well if it's Long Beach NY than sure! I am on the wrong coast unfortunately.
It must be a real pain having to finds sources, go through the effort and then loose them. Doing your own sure makes a lot more sense.
I have never heard the SEOS horns have to check them out one of these days. Nice idea on the rear tweeter. I just got a pair of HEILS. What a great sale that was! First experience at home with a dipole top end. Have them biamped with a 12" and a notch to tame the peak. It's different for sure but I like it, sounds nice.
As far as rings here is a paper you might be interested in. No idea about cost or availability although seeing how they handle M2 parts?
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...aper-on-Dual-Diaphragm-Drivers-2430-2415-2420
Rob
Dear forum members,
What I wrote below are my personal thoughts. They are not facts. I am not an authority on the subject. I am not as experienced in hifi as most of you. Please read it under these conditions.
For the last 20 years I purchased and used lots of speakers.
The most memorable ones are Sonus Faber Guarnieri, Focal Utopia Diablo, Focal Utopia Scala v2, Wilson Sophia 3, Wilson Sasha, Wilson Alexia, Magico Q3. I may miss some names here.
Out of all these speakers Wilson Sasha and Alexia were the most enjoyable ones. My first criteria are realism and musicality. The feeling of being there and feeling the emotion. I never cared for technicality. Technicality is fun for a few minutes. After that, it is boring. Just like a Bugatti Veyron. It is perfect on paper but if I had to choose only one car to own I would never have a Veyron regardless of cost.
Last year I visited Munich 2018 and covered the show. I listened to nearly every speaker on every price range including statement products. Some were very very good, some were a disappointment. We always say shows never show the true nature of a speaker but if a speaker is 200K USD it has to surprise me in any condition even a little bit.
Anyway, near the end of my Munich journey I visited the Diesis Audio room. I was stuck on my place. Hairs on my arms stood up. I was nearly crying I swear to you. I swear to you on anything. Vyger rig connected to Ongaku connected to Diesis Audio Triode speakers.
I never owned a horn or an open baffle speaker so the sound was so new to me. It was nothing I heard and I heard a lot in my house and my friends' houses.
The realism was scary. The owner of Diesis Audio Guiseppe saw how I felt about the sound and we started to talk. With our talk I immediately understood that this guy designs speakers not just for business but for the love of music. He was first a music man then a hifi company owner.
I didn't think twice and ordered Caput Mundi model right away. I didn't have money for the Triode. I never thought about second hand value etc. The sound I heard there was what I was looking for in this hobby for the last 20 years. There was no contest.
Now I have the speakers for 3-4 months and I am as happy as I can possibly be. Everyday I am amazed. And when I visit my friends' systems that I adored before, they all sound like a "speaker" after my speakers. I really understood what the term "realism" and "being there" means after I heard these speakers.
I have great experience with conventional speakers but I have very few experience with OB and horns so what I am referring with Diesis speakers may be correct with most of the OB & horn speakers out there. I don't know. I also want to add again that these are my own feelings and thoughts. They are not facts. We all have different motives in this hobby but if you never listened to these speakers before, please do. You will be surprised.
With love and respect.
Cagdas
What I wrote below are my personal thoughts. They are not facts. I am not an authority on the subject. I am not as experienced in hifi as most of you. Please read it under these conditions.
For the last 20 years I purchased and used lots of speakers.
The most memorable ones are Sonus Faber Guarnieri, Focal Utopia Diablo, Focal Utopia Scala v2, Wilson Sophia 3, Wilson Sasha, Wilson Alexia, Magico Q3. I may miss some names here.
Out of all these speakers Wilson Sasha and Alexia were the most enjoyable ones. My first criteria are realism and musicality. The feeling of being there and feeling the emotion. I never cared for technicality. Technicality is fun for a few minutes. After that, it is boring. Just like a Bugatti Veyron. It is perfect on paper but if I had to choose only one car to own I would never have a Veyron regardless of cost.
Last year I visited Munich 2018 and covered the show. I listened to nearly every speaker on every price range including statement products. Some were very very good, some were a disappointment. We always say shows never show the true nature of a speaker but if a speaker is 200K USD it has to surprise me in any condition even a little bit.
Anyway, near the end of my Munich journey I visited the Diesis Audio room. I was stuck on my place. Hairs on my arms stood up. I was nearly crying I swear to you. I swear to you on anything. Vyger rig connected to Ongaku connected to Diesis Audio Triode speakers.
I never owned a horn or an open baffle speaker so the sound was so new to me. It was nothing I heard and I heard a lot in my house and my friends' houses.
The realism was scary. The owner of Diesis Audio Guiseppe saw how I felt about the sound and we started to talk. With our talk I immediately understood that this guy designs speakers not just for business but for the love of music. He was first a music man then a hifi company owner.
I didn't think twice and ordered Caput Mundi model right away. I didn't have money for the Triode. I never thought about second hand value etc. The sound I heard there was what I was looking for in this hobby for the last 20 years. There was no contest.
Now I have the speakers for 3-4 months and I am as happy as I can possibly be. Everyday I am amazed. And when I visit my friends' systems that I adored before, they all sound like a "speaker" after my speakers. I really understood what the term "realism" and "being there" means after I heard these speakers.
I have great experience with conventional speakers but I have very few experience with OB and horns so what I am referring with Diesis speakers may be correct with most of the OB & horn speakers out there. I don't know. I also want to add again that these are my own feelings and thoughts. They are not facts. We all have different motives in this hobby but if you never listened to these speakers before, please do. You will be surprised.
With love and respect.
Cagdas
Empirical Audio
Industry Expert
Now these look like a practical implementation of horns. It's ridiculous trying to get low-bass from horns IMO. These drivers must be carefully matched so the dispersion is not too different.
Are those iron-core inductors I see in the crossover? These can be improved significantly by using ribbon air-core inductors like the 12 gauge paper-in-oil ones from jensencapacitors.com. I change all of my speaker crossovers to have these. Big sound quality upgrade.
Steve N.
Are those iron-core inductors I see in the crossover? These can be improved significantly by using ribbon air-core inductors like the 12 gauge paper-in-oil ones from jensencapacitors.com. I change all of my speaker crossovers to have these. Big sound quality upgrade.
Steve N.
Parkcaka, I am with you 100%. I had the good (bad*) fortune to hear the Roma model @ Rhapsody in NYC a couple months back. I currently own Alexia (v1) and like you I have loved the musicality and overall delivery. But the Diesis changed my perception and my expectation of what to expect from a speaker. I was more impressed with what I heard from the “Roma” model than I was listening to the Wilson WAMM. That is not a comment of technical virtues, just the impression the speakers made. Lifelike realism, an uncanny ease and flow to the sound, instantly engaging and not requiring monstrous power (ala Dag’ Relentless). Simple form factor, decent WAF, and then the sound...
Did you compare the Caputi to the Roma directly?
* I only say “bad” with respect to the fact I now have to find a way to put Roma in my own room. Fortunately the Minister of Finance is warming to the idea, slowly.
Did you compare the Caputi to the Roma directly?
* I only say “bad” with respect to the fact I now have to find a way to put Roma in my own room. Fortunately the Minister of Finance is warming to the idea, slowly.
Steve, I hear you my friend.
After the honeymoon is over I am sure there will be some upgrade attempts (with permission from Guiseppe) if I can't upgrade directly to the Roma Triode model. The Triode model is the holy grail for me at the moment.
After the honeymoon is over I am sure there will be some upgrade attempts (with permission from Guiseppe) if I can't upgrade directly to the Roma Triode model. The Triode model is the holy grail for me at the moment.
Last edited:
Hi my friend.
I didn't have opportunity to compare Roma with Caput Mundi but I am sure the DNA is the same. Roma is just an upgrade. But Roma Triode! That is something else. But, I can easily live with Caput Mundi for years. Due to the nature (horn & open baffle) the speaker is sensitive to everything you do in your system. I have never had a speaker that reflects any changes in your system in this magnitude. I can understand why. It is so "not there".
Last edited:
Similar threads
