Can we actually discuss What is Best on this forum?

Leaving the pettiness of policing someone's speech or terms aside, naming something the "Best" is human nature to both proclaim and knock it off its perch. It's also difficult to have a singular entity entitled the best in a world full of heterogeneity. Let's say, for example, that WB Audio builds a speaker that every single opera fan agree is the best at reproducing every opera in existence. That's undeniably an awesome achievement but if someone doesn't like opera and only listens to jazz if the speaker doesn't do it for them then is it still the best? To opera fans yes.

To me, what's more, interesting/fun is the discussion that goes along with proclaiming something "the best." Yes, things can get a little crazy but for the most part, discussions are civil and not too mean-spirited. Those that don't adhere to that have found their way to my banned list so maybe I am not seeing what's really going on but there have been fewer blanks in threads lately so maybe we are having the BEST conversations we can.

Beau
 
Elliot I see you have not done a podcast in awhile.
Hi Jeffy. Both Veronica and I exhibited at PAF and the preparation, shipping, traveling, returning etc. took a lot of our time. I hope we can get back on track shortly.
 
The phrase, "World's Best Cartridge“ emphatically states that there is one particular cart that is the absolute best in the entire world. According to Webster’s, the word “best” means, “a person or thing or part of a thing that is better than all the other.” Or, the absolute finest, the greatest, the foremost.

Everyone in the hobby has at least:

(1) different levels of hearing
(2) different learning experiences

We don’t all hear the same. This is a fact. No one on this forum has experienced every single combination of every piece of gear in existence. Since the entire chain matters - (our hearing —> equipment combos, etc.) this is a very subjective hobby. Ones person’s magic may not be another person‘s.

With all these variables - and more (?) - there can be no absolute best.

This said, IMO we may have our absolute favorites, or that which is excellent, or that which the best of what we’ve heard to date, etc.

This is of course my opinion as everything else I’ve written or will ever write on this forum is.
 
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Very interesting thread. I agree with several posts here (Ron & Al's for example), notably the concept that sound reproduction doesn't match what we hear live, that there are missing ingredients where one system may include that ingredient (and leave out others) while another system does the same but focuses on different ingredients.

I recall Peter once saying to me "Ian, it's not like when you go to the BSO you focus on the timbre of instruments, you're just taking in the performance" (I'm paraphrasing here) and I replied "Actually I do very much concentrate on the sound, specifically timbre, body, separation of instruments etc., at least for a portion of the performance. I listen as an audiophile first, then transition over to music lover; that's just me."

I've been studying orchestration lately and one thing that I learned I found fascinating. I'm sure most of know that it is the harmonics of an instrument that determine its timbre - why instruments sound different. These harmonics are normally higher in pitch than the note being played.
However, as humans we hear best in the midrange and as notes go higher in pitch, the harmonics that are integral to the timbre of the instrument are less perceived (the less they are in the midrange area) and that is why various instruments start to sound similar in higher registers.

I mention this because the midrange is (obviously) where the majority of music lives. Thus, reproduction of the midrange is vital for most people. Extra emphasis on this region (additional harmonics introduced by electronics) can be very seductive for this reason. However you can argue that comes at a cost as these generated harmonics don't change per instrument - the electronics just do what they do - and the result is a coloration. How much, how seductive, etc all depend on taste. Who doesn't appreciate a female singer with a touch of sugar added on top? Some makeup to make her look more desirable? :) I can personally appreciate that; I can be seduced by that. But I can also tell that I'm being lied to. I can tell that certain things are missing or at least being masked.

If I think of the argument that I've head on this forum that tape is NOT as good as vinyl (where for the content in question it was recorded on tape) I think either that the specific copy of the tape being compared was simply not stellar (old or lower generation) or that the additive colorations of vinyl are simply beguiling. I think the latter is very true for a lot of people here.

I feel you can not say what is 'best' when it comes to audio reproduction anymore than you can say what the best looking person is; it's all taste.
 
yet my claim is just an opinion, based on my personal experiences. but i don't know what i don't know. yet i do feel that way. and am willing to share my viewpoint.
I am glad you take a stand of what you think is the best or the World's best Mike. When a really experienced person of anything (especially of this very subjective hobby) put his words on something, it has weight. It has been reduced and reduced and reduced like a chef making a Consumme. And it is not like I do not know your background in audio. Your journey has been documented over the years showing what you have gone through. How much exposure you have in this hobby and especially with very well reputed gears. YOU CAN SAY WHAT'S BEST. Your subjective opinions have value and they are not equal. I might not even agree if I have experienced the same gear you are claiming. But I sure will put that gear you said on top of my to-find-out-list if I have not heard in my system before. I have been hearing people said this gear is excellent, that gear is excellent. All things are equal excellent because it is freakin base on preference. :D What the heck with this homogeneity. No stand for nothing for me only means haven't heard what really set itself apart or not enough exposure to have guts to say. You have been there and done that with gears more than so many people in this hobby. You dont sell audio for a living. You have been on social media since I dont know when. You are in the seventies the age when you stay far far away from jeopardizing your reputation. If you think it is the best in the world and say it. That is heavy. Benefit us all crazy spenders of ridiculously prized audio. Please keep on reducing making Consomme. Put your word on it when your previous proclamation is knock off by the new finding. Btw I think the Wadax has the World's Best Tone of all digital as of now.:p
 
I am glad you take a stand of what you think is the best or the World's best Mike. When a really experienced person of anything (especially of this very subjective hobby) put his words on something, it has weight. It has been reduced and reduced and reduced like a chef making a Consumme. And it is not like I do not know your background in audio. Your journey has been documented over the years showing what you have gone through. How much exposure you have in this hobby and especially with very well reputed gears. YOU CAN SAY WHAT'S BEST. Your subjective opinions have value and they are not equal. I might not even agree if I have experienced the same gear you are claiming. But I sure will put that gear you said on top of my to-find-out-list if I have not heard in my system before. I have been hearing people said this gear is excellent, that gear is excellent. All things are equal excellent because it is freakin base on preference. :D What the heck with this homogeneity. No stand for nothing for me only means haven't heard what really set itself apart or not enough exposure to have guts to say. You have been there and done that with gears more than so many people in this hobby. You dont sell audio for a living. You have been on social media since I dont know when. You are in the seventies the age when you stay far far away from jeopardizing your reputation. If you think it is the best in the world and say it. That is heavy. Benefit us all crazy spenders of ridiculously prized audio. Please keep on reducing making Consomme. Put your word on it when your previous proclamation is knock off by the new finding. Btw I think the Wadax has the World's Best Tone of all digital as of now.:p

Nobody has claimed that all gear is "equally excellent". I certainly would vehemently deny such notion. Suggesting such a red herring distracts from the discussion if, in view of the subjectivity involved in this hobby, one can categorically name a single thing "the best".
 
Claiming something is best is indeed taking a stand. We live in a society now where that seems to be discouraged. People who share their ideas of what is best have the confidence and experience to do so. No one is saying they are right. What is right? But do we not agree there are different levels or steps in the quest to move us closer to the experience of live sound?

I look at what products have survived over time and remain highly coveted. What is it about them that makes them legendary? Why do people admire the old Micro Seikis, the Neumann, the original American Sound? What is it about the WE horns, Tannoy Autographs or JBL Paragon? The classic recordings of the 50s and 60s? I am not saying that there is agreement that these are all better than the best of today. I am saying that there is something that certain products have that connects the listener closer to the music, and this quality stands the test of time. These are some of the best products of the past, in part because they are recognized as such and they deliver on that promise. They have earned this reputation and people seek them out. The best of today, CH Precision, WADAX, and others may be coveted in the future and perhaps stand with those that I mentioned.

When one describes what he thinks is best, does he make a list of sonic attributes and describe compromises and trade-offs? Or does he describe what the product or system does to bring him closer to the experience of listening in the concert hall? Does he talk about the music, the genius of the composer, the conductor's interpretation, the musician's playing? Is he left to experience the recording on not think about the gear? This is what the best components should have in common. It is not about price or buzz or what uses the newest technology. It is about the final result and effect on the listener. It can not be best if there are trade-offs and compromises. The best are those few with little or no compromises.

Here is how ddk describes what he thinks is the best of the rare group of five Beyond Turntables:

"Even among the best of the best turntables, there’s still be a distinguishable hierarchy. I don’t claim to have heard them all but many have passed through my hands and this small group is compiled after several decades of high end experience. In this group every player has the ability to completely disappear and present a natural, sophisticated experience of the recorded music, that’s why they’re Beyond the so called high and ultra high end for me where price has become the determining factor. At some point I came across the American Sound record player, a 550+lbs monolith designed by a minimalist. There’s nothing extra and/or non-functional here, not even paint. What finishing there is on the steel has a function and comes from the Japanese tooling industry, a hand finishing technique for grinding down and flat leveling machined steel surfaces. American Sound’s purity of design follows through to its sound, there’s nothing to attract or detract, simply music and of course Natural…"

David later writes this about his AS2000, a project he pursued only because he was confident he could improve on what was:

"Most of what you wrote which I agree with describes 4) which you can get from fairly modest setups when you know what you're doing. The increases in resolution in terms of accuracy, musical detail, tonality, timbre, tonal depth and range, dynamics, etc. get you closer to that live like sound, the glass in the window to the live event getting bigger and cleaner. The ultimate step is getting beyond the system or the window and actually stepping into that event, not just sonically but emotionally so your brain and body react to what one hears in a completely natural way. To get there you need a lot more resolution and the complete tonal picture picture of an actual not and not only parts or highlights of it which is what you get even in the best systems. The AS2000 is where you can step Beyond the system, the room and life like to an actual live event where you have full resolution. Even a single note from a good musical instrument is very rich sophisticated and complex, then you have the character of note changing with the quality of that instrument, finally there's the individual creating that note with their virtuosity and essence of self. This what you can have and get in a live event and what might think impossible from a recording but it's there. The purpose of the AS2000 is to bring out that information from the grooves and get out of the way, all the macro, micro, the dynamic, all the resonance, the decay, the rise, the fall, the speed, the attack, the sweetness and the harshness of a note and then the notes and their delivery but the artist, this is resolution. As in a live event you get not to just hear a violin but to know who's Heifetz, who's Haendel or Grumiaux; Starker & Rastropovich and then there's Casals. This information is all there in the better analog recordings and you'll be able to touch it when the system can resolve all of it."

I was fortunate to be able to own one of the Beyond Turntables, the Micro Seiki SX8000II. I then had the original AS1000 at home for a month and was able to directly compare the two. I now own the AS2000. These are good/better/best. There is a reason Vladimir Lamm sought out the AS1000 and used it for fifteen years to develop his electronics. There is a reason all visitors to Utah preferred it and the Neumann cartridge to David's other turntable/cartridge combinations.

I reread Michael Fremer's Stereophile review of the OMA K3 turntable yesterday. He compares it to the AirForce Zero and SAT XD1. Here is an excerpt in which he describes the sound and the differences between the three tables. Comparing this to what David and Tang write about their turntables illustrates for me the contrast between the concept of something being the best and the idea that everything involves trade-offs, and in the end, we all simply choose which sonic compromises we want to live with.

K3 sound
The K3 was fast, clean, detailed, highly resolving, super-transparent, effortlessly dynamic, and capable of producing unparalleled transient precision and depth-charge-deep bass "wallop" that's fully extended yet totally free from overhang. The K3's "hit fast, hit hard, linger just long enough, and then get out of town" performance could not have been more different from the Air Force Zero's. That would come as neither a surprise nor a disappointment to either 'table's designers—although my time with Mr. Weiss leads me to believe he'll be disappointed that I didn't write that "the K3 blows the fat, sluggish, energy-retaining Air Force Zero out of the water."

I've heard my share of fat, sluggish, bulbous-sounding turntables and thin, lean, edgy, bass-deficient ones too. The sonic performance of these two super-'tables—and that of the SAT XD1, which sonically sits somewhere in between—isn't accidental. All three are purposeful and intentional in design and sonic outcome.

The K3 is brash and bold (which doesn't mean bright or mechanical), while the Air Force Zero is velvety and reserved (which doesn't mean timid or sluggish). I'd give the silent-backgrounds nod to the Zero (over every turntable I've yet heard) and the pristine, explosive transients nod to the K3.

People can reject the idea that something can be the best and instead simply appreciate things at a high level. But when someone else expresses with some confidence that he has found something he considers to be the best, and he explains why he thinks so, people should respect that and appreciate what it takes for someone to arrive at such a conclusion. We are all here to learn, and I am glad this forum allows us the opportunity to share our thoughts and express different opinions.
 
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Peter, respectfully, if you are bending this topic and narrative toward the ddk world view, it will be very polarizing. it's seems that's the universe you occupy. others view it as a valid perspective.....but not any absolute, as you infer. i'm reading your meaning, not your words. it suffocates discourse. i know i avoid that subject of discussion as it's not worth the trouble to me. i'm sure that's not how it looks to you.

soon Japanese cartridges will again be assaulted.

just say'n.
 
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Claiming something is best is indeed taking a stand. We live in a society now where that seems to be discouraged.

Not exactly. Taking a rational stand on how subjectivity in audio and aural perception may preclude components to be objectively called "the best", as some including me have done on this thread, does not imply discouragement of calling something the best when objectively warranted.

It is generally agreed upon experts and even among the informed public that the new James Webb space telescope is the most powerful, i.e. the very best, space telescope out there -- no ifs and buts. There is nothing in society now where such a statement is discouraged.
 
Peter, respectfully, if you are bending this topic and narrative toward the ddk world view, it will be very polarizing. it's seems that's the universe you occupy. others view it as a valid perspective.....but not any absolute, as you infer. i'm reading your meaning, not your words. it suffocates discourse. i know i avoid that subject of discussion as it's not worth the trouble to me. i'm sure that's not how it looks to you.

soon Japanese cartridges will again be assaulted.

just say'n.

Thanks for right away getting to the point, Mike.
 
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I think best needs a class of its own . Perhaps 100k and above can be close enough to the heavens to claim it ,but be careful of lighting !
Clearly there are products that if used correcly can get you above a lesser class of audio. But to proclaim at each level this is best , things become redundent. I thought the worlds best has to be just one .
Its why i dont think the term < best >is a word one should use as an apsolute or alone.
Add some other words to best is a better way to make a point
As for this sites name it is whats best no doubt in that. But its also a subjective whats best .
By the way my own nick name for here is the wallet .

i do bow to many here to learn, but is there one best here ?
There is a saying never get too close to your god if you want to still look up to them.

Lastly to ask is there a best is fine by me .
 
Peter, respectfully, if you are bending this topic and narrative toward the ddk world view, it will be very polarizing. it's seems that's the universe you occupy. others view it as a valid perspective.....but not any absolute, as you infer. i'm reading your meaning, not your words. it suffocates discourse. i know i avoid that subject of discussion as it's not worth the trouble to me. i'm sure that's not how it looks to you.

soon Japanese cartridges will again be assaulted.

just say'n.

Mike, I am not bending anything. Besides I started the thread. It is my topic and my narrative. I want to see where it goes. You have your own perspective and travel through your universe at Warp 9 getting the new stuff. Perhaps your approach is more relevant to this forum.

I wanted to come up with examples from the past to make my point about the best from the past still competing today and remaining highly coveted. This is what David deals with and what I have been exposed to. I chose examples which are readily available on this forum for people to easily look up and relate to. And they are the examples that I can discuss in my experience.

I then included examples from now including your highly praised WADAX DAC and Ian‘s CH Precision. The Airtight opus one is a fantastic Japanese cartridge and available today. I included a review of three highly regarded contemporary turntables all claiming superiority. You once contemplated the AS2000. I would’ve thought you would have found the references to it and others quite interesting.
 
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Leaving the pettiness of policing someone's speech or terms aside, .....

Beau
Sadly it's all about insecurity and pettiness Beau, here's Big Mike telling Peter what he should say..

Peter, respectfully, if you are bending this topic and narrative toward the ddk world view, it will be very polarizing. it's seems that's the universe you occupy. others view it as a valid perspective.....but not any absolute, as you infer. i'm reading your meaning, not your words. it suffocates discourse. i know i avoid that subject of discussion as it's not worth the trouble to me. i'm sure that's not how it looks to you.

soon Japanese cartridges will again be assaulted.

just say'n.
I see, unification is your world view and becoming one of your mindless groupies? Let's have a 2nd coming every couple of months then tell the drones how chachki the crap out of it until next toy comes along! Once in a while play the good guy game while attacking some one else or bitching about others disagreeing with you. Ah ddk is polarizing and oh natural sound is elitist while I spend tens of thousands on my Dac, poor poor Mike life is tough for you. The difference between us is that I don't play games, I know what I'm doing and I'm consistent and don't give a flying "F" what you or anyone else thinks of me. Stay in your own lane and don't try to tell me or anyone else what we should think or say.
 
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Not exactly. Taking a rational stand on how subjectivity in audio and aural perception may preclude components to be objectively called "the best", as some including me have done on this thread, does not imply discouragement of calling something the best when objectively warranted.

It is generally agreed upon experts and even among the informed public that the new James Webb space telescope is the most powerful, i.e. the very best, space telescope out there -- no ifs and buts. There is nothing in society now where such a statement is discouraged.

Al, I have made one claim about something being the best, and that is the Neumann cartridge. I have heard a lot of cartridges which all do some things well and somethings not so well. The better ones have the fewest compromises and trade-offs. I don’t hear any with the Neumann. This is my rationale for making the claim.

Is there something wrong with making such a statement on an audio forum? Especially a forum with such a title? This is the topic of the thread.
 
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Mike, I am not bending anything. Besides I started the thread. It is my topic and my narrative. I want to see where it goes. You have your own perspective and travel through your universe at Warp 9 getting the new stuff. Perhaps your approach is more relevant to this forum.

I wanted to come up with examples from the past to make my point about the best from the past still competing today and remaining highly coveted. This is what David deals with and what I have been exposed to. I chose examples which are readily available on this forum for people to easily look up and relate to. And they are the examples that I can discuss in my experience.

I then included examples from now including your highly praised WADAX DAC and Ian‘s CH Precision. The Airtight opus one is a fantastic Japanese cartridge and available today. I included a review of three highly regarded contemporary turntables all claiming superiority. You once contemplated the AS2000. I would’ve thought you would have found the references to it and others quite interesting.
What Mike and Al are basically saying is to comply or they won’t play with you anymore! This shit is all personal and nothing else.

david
 
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I think we all hear substantially the same thing in the concert hall. So why do we end up with audio systems which sound very different?

IMHO we don't. Remember hearing includes perception. Just read a few magazines on classical music, reading opinions of people about the same concert. Studies on music perception refer to it - the way people are dressed, the lights, everything matters and some people are more affected than others. Some are experienced music listeners, others just casual listeners.

If we all heard the same people who carry perception studies in music would not need to assembles large panels to get results and analyze the data to present results that are accepted as meaningful.

I quote "Music perception involves acoustic analysis, auditory memory, auditory scene analysis, processing of interval relations, of musical syntax and semantics, and activation of (pre)motor representations of actions." from https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00110/full (end of quote)


Audio components don’t reproduce sound perfectly — either the sound of a single acoustic instrument played live in front of us in a small room, or the overall sonic experience we enjoy in the concert hall. We don’t achieve 100% suspension of disbelief while listening to our stereo systems.

Yes, known since long. Stereo only captures a small portion of the real information and adds a lot of artifacts.

BWT, there are ways to improve suspension of disbelief while listening to our stereo systems whose discussion violates our TOS. :)

Since our audio components collectively cannot re-create the entire experience we perceive in the concert hall each of us chooses components that re-create those particular attributes of sound we hear in the concert hall which subjectively maximize our personal suspension of disbelief. Our selection of the particular attributes of sound which are most important to us as conduits to maximizing our personal suspension of disbelief is subjective. Different audio components sound different. Sonically contrasting audio components will be used by different audiophiles to achieve certain particular attributes of sound. This is why MadFloyd, a musician — who surely knows what his instrument sounds like — has a stereo which sounds very different than Peter’s stereo.

Yes, I fully agree.

Choosing different components for our audio systems results in our audio systems sounding different. This is why our different stereo systems sound so different, even though we all are hearing substantially the same thing in the concert hall.

How each of us chooses to replicate at home with an audio system an experience similar to the experience in the concert hall is subjective. This is why there is no one, same “world’s best [component]” for all audiophiles.

Yes.

Different audiophiles have radically different levels of high-end audio experience. The different levels of live music experience, the difficulty of even finding components other than popular ones from the most advertised brands, the difficulty of auditioning individual audio components in an analytically valid way, the difficulty of attributing sonic attributes to particular components, etc., all conspire to make this whole endeavor very challenging.

There is a huge problem of people not knowing what they don’t know — and not being introspectively aware of this. And if someone learns a little more, he/she still doesn’t know what he/she doesn’t know. Analytically valid experience to aquire more knowledgeable is not easy to get.

What this means is that there will be greater dispersion in the sounds of the resulting systems then there should be if the average audiophile had a higher level of experience and knowledge. This is another, separate reason why our resulting audio systems sound more different system to system than what we can largely agree we all are hearing in the concert hall.

Stereo sound reproduction is so fragile that minimal contributions that we can't correlate with measurements, such as cables or stands, can make a night and day difference, form a great experience to a miserable experience. But yes, IMHO extremely tuned systems to experienced audiophiles are expected to show more differences than more common systems.
 
Ron is correct we do hear the same , but what we like or our feelings of it is not the same as hearing it
I may go onto a room love it and ask others to go inside
some love some don’t but all heard it as I did
to make a fine point on timbre or bloom is not hearing anymore
it’s onto a fine description not hearing

As for Direct compares to a live un amped event this is not the same as our rooms either
one can say we can’t reproduce an equal in certain aspects
I can agree we have limits
now regarding measuring and the tools we use none are truly used to hear as we do
measure headphones
you can’t get close to placing them on ur head and hearing them.
 
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Al, I have made one claim about something being the best, and that is the Neumann cartridge. I have heard a lot of cartridges which all do some things well and somethings not so well. The better ones have the fewest compromises and trade-offs. I don’t hear any with the Neumann. This is my rationale for making the claim.

*You* don't hear any compromises or trade-offs. That is subjective, Peter, because auditory perception is subjective.

(Apart from the fact that it is highly debatable if there can be a component without compromises or trade-offs -- any component will give a particular perspective on sound, and not to everyone this perspective will be entirely "right" and optimal on all recordings.)

On the other hand, there is clear consensus that the James Webb space telescope is the best ever. This is supported by the objectively most resolving and most far reaching space images ever. There is little room for interpretation to the contrary.
 
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