Can we actually discuss What is Best on this forum?

[morricab]

So sorry to read of this Audire , my best wishes for a favourable outcome .

Likewise, I hope it works out well.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Warm regards and wishes this end too.

 

[Al M.]

Best wishes, I hope it works out well!
Al

 

[beaur]

My (hopefully humorous) answers to the quiz:

1. should be a young pair of ears, objectively below 50

Fail as my ears are just as old as the rest of me.

2. Should live in a city where there are lots of live concerts to create a reference

Pass, but as I believe there's no real comparison between live concerts and home listening to be made, actually a fail.

3. Should live in a city where there are lots of airports to allow travel to listen to systems

Pass, although technically there are no airports in Brooklyn.

4. Should not be defending his own system

Fail along with everyone else who owns a system. If you can't defend your own system, why do you own it?

5. Should not be selling what he recommends

Partial fail. I help friends sell their equipment that I also happen to own.

6. Should have a blog

Fail. I'm just not that interesting.

7. Greater than 15000 posts

Fail but get a pass for real life, not having spent the time writing 15K posts

8. Greater than 8000 likes

Not on Twitter so I guess this is a fail.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Of course we can discuss what is best. Can we reach a reasonable consensus based on expertise and experience? That is another matter.
Who is the best basketball player of all time?
Bill Russell
Michael Jordan
LeBron James?
They never played each other. They all played different positions in a team sport.
I don't think that issue will ever be solved.
Are you going on measurements. How it sounds. How much it costs. Personal taste. Michael Fremer declined to rate a product as best simply because he had not heard all the contenders. Who has been exposed to more contenders for best product than he?

au contraire.....

LaBron played, scored and defended at all 5 positions, at an All Star level. for decades. a Unicorn.

 

[andromedaaudio]

9 is a bitcoin expert .
10 has no system
11 reminds me of guys worlking in the financial world ( you gotta take this and that position clear winner ......)

 

[ddk]

Frankly this is one of the sillier threads but gosh darn it all, you guys are (mostly) so serious about it. Peter, even though this should not have really been a topic you're shear earnestness about it is endearing, if not a bit off putting.

The whole point of "Best" in What's Best Forum is not about crowning a king in each device category. Micro, even though not a native English speaker has hit the right definition where "Best" here refers to general excellence and not an absolute winner for a device category.

1) It is not like there is a hifi olympics where all the top competitors lineup and are objectively quantified for the one gold medalist...even if it were the case it would be more like figure skating, somewhat objective but ultimately a lot of subjectivity in the final score.

The closest that can be done is the shootout where a wealthy individual or group of people bring 20 or so devices of known top quality to the battle. These shootouts rarely crown a definitive winner (for reasons outlined below) and would possibly only be true in that particular system anyway. So, no absolute winner and people's bias will cloud their judgement (just like back in Soviet times when the ice skating judges would give very suspicious looking scores for the skater of the opposing country and amazing scores for their own).


2) Psychoacoustic studies demonstrate that there is indeed a way to evaluate preference statistically. Geddes, Cheever, Lamm and others have developed psychoacoustic models that indicate a correlation between certain objective performance traits and listener preference. As Lamm has done, gear can be developed using those statisical results and this would then appeal to what the model says is the "best" sound for human listeners. I am actually an advocate of this approach as it is likely the best one currently available. HOWEVER, it has to be noted the correlations are not absolute. There is no correlation coefficient of 1 here that says do this and EVERYONE will find it the most preferrable. Often the correlation is at best about 0.8. This still leaves a lot of room for dissention from the prescribed model design. This means that even if Lamm's model was the best possible model, the correlation would likely still be far from 1 and therefore not everyone would agree that Lamm gear sounds the best. This can be applied ad nauseum because the statistical variability will always be there.

What does this mean? There can be no objective "best" but there can be "what most people prefer" gear based on statistical analysis of an empirical model. That will likely be the closest to a consensus to "best" one is likely to get.

What would be interesting would be to take gear designed with psychoacoustic parameters included in the design (like Lamm supposedly is) and gear designed with a different PA model to see if they converge or diverge in terms of listener preference.

I will just close that my own preference runs very much in the direction that Peter has gone, so generally I think that approach is more rather than less correct. I would not crown the absolute best speaker, amp, DAC, TT, phonostage etc. though. There are many that are mining similar if not exactly the same veins that deliver a similar sound profile to what DDK and Peter have espoused as "The Best". I have no doubt that DDK considers his TT the best and Lamm electronics the best. Probably Bionors as well... No one doubts they are great and occupy that upper echelon of a small pantheon of similarly superb gear but to crown them the best always comes back to the question of "to whom?"

This thread was never about crowning kings or queens nor best of anything Brad. This thread is aimed at those members who constantly badger and want to control what others are allowed to say or talk about. Most of it is for personal reasons and we all know exactly who they are. We can't have a real conversation about anything as long as they continue with their ignorance and malice. I realize that this is an uncomfortable topic that many want to avoid but we won't have a What's BEST Forum if the self appointed thought police aren't dealt with.

What I think as the best or the worst is irrelevant to this conversation or the thread's headline.

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

This thread is a bunch of nonsense.
Just attention seeking nothing else imo

 

[Elliot G.]

au contraire.....

LaBron played, scored and defended at all 5 positions, at an All Star level. for decades. a Unicorn.

MJ is and was the greatest of all time!

 

[Joe Whip]

Hey, don’t forget about Wilt Chamberlain.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hey, don’t forget about Wilt Chamberlain.

Michael Jordan · 6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998) · 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998) · 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)

 

[the sound of Tao]

you must like The Magic Flute.

Sure I am OK to go in as the pa pa pa Papa Geno… but bags someone else whacks on a dress and be Cosi fan tutte this week

 

[marty]

I think we can objectively define which contributor should define what’s best

1. should be a young pair of ears, objectively below 50
2. Should live in a city where there are lots of live concerts to create a reference

Next time I'm at Carnegie, I will hold up this sign outside before the concert

 

[Joe Whip]

Michael Jordan · 6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998) · 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998) · 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)

They did not have to change the rules because of Michael Jordan like they did for Wilt.

 

[PeterA]

This thread is a bunch of nonsense.
Just attention seeking nothing else imo

You know, I started this thread after reading the best cartridge thread that a new member started. I thought it was an interesting topic and that we would discuss the very idea of some audio products rising above the rest and perhaps even standing the test of time to remain or become examples to hold up and serve as inspiration to others. Ideally, we could ask what is it about these particular ones that make them special.

I started the thread with a genuine interest in learning something. It is a serious topic and I raised it with respect. I did not discuss people but rather things. I gave examples to get the discussion started.

Almost immediately a group takes over the thread and insults me and others making it very personal. This was not about people but rather ideas and great designs.

We discussed the state of the industry a while back. Reading six pages and 114 posts in less that 48 hours, I more fully grasp the state of the forum and the natures of the members. It is a shame, both the break down of civility, and the unwillingness to discuss what I see as an important audio topic.

I wonder what the new member who started that wonderful best cartridge thread must be thinking.

 

[Elliot G.]

They did not have to change the rules because of Michael Jordan like they did for Wilt.

yes but Wilt and Shaq for that matter did not have the ability to do everything. They were huge and good at a few things Mike was the best at everything. Scoring and Defense and by far no was was more clutch than MJ. I am not diminishing Wilt or Shaq or Bill Russel or Oscar or Jerry West or any of the rest but there is Mike and now let's discuss the rest.
Mike also played with hand checking and loads of hard fouls not the silly thing they play today where no one plays D and everyone walks on the way to the rim and as long as they dunk it its cool.

 

[PeterA]

yes but Wilt and Shaq for that matter did not have the ability to do everything. They were huge and good at a few things Mike was the best at everything. Scoring and Defense and by far no was was more clutch than MJ. I am not diminishing Wilt or Shaq or Bill Russel or Oscar or Jerry West or any of the rest but there is Mike and now let's discuss the rest.
Mike also played with hand checking and loads of hard fouls not the silly thing they play today where no one plays D and everyone walks on the way to the rim and as long as they dunk it its cool.

You guys are talking about trade-offs and compromises. Strengths and weaknesses. That is why you can debate it.

The best audio gear has few to none. That is what distinguishes them from the rest. When your mind does not dwell on the sound of the gear and goes right to the music, you know something is right. When you find it difficult to describe the gear and only talk about the music and the listening experience, you know something is right.

This is why I posted those few descriptions of the super tables. Read what the listeners are writing. Their words are very revealing.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I can say undoubtedly that Audiophile Bill's gear and setup fits into the category you describe. The DaVa cart he uses seems unique across the range of carts I've listened to over the years (only the Lyra Parnassus comes close) in truly reproducing the tonality and richness of color I hear in live unamplified, the Thomas Mayer amps are the epitome of getting out of the way, and his bespoke horns do something so unique in my experience of spkrs, in truly removing the mechanics of musical reproduction.
When he played a mastertape of Terry Callier (late 60s recording, I believe), never has the illusion of the performer in the room been more perfect.
I've never quite recovered from that demo, so realistic and other-worldly at the same time was the experience. And it truly put my own personal system building efforts into perspective.

 

[Elliot G.]

You guys are talking about trade-offs and compromises. Strengths and weaknesses. That is why you can debate it.

The best audio gear has few to none. That is what distinguishes them from the rest. When your mind does not dwell on the sound of the gear and goes right to the music, you know something is right. When you find it difficult to describe the gear and only talk about the music and the listening experience, you know something is right.

This is why I posted those few descriptions of the super tables. Read what the listeners are writing. Their words are very revealing.

Peter, I agree with you and you handle the subjects with respect and being polite. That however is not the case for many others that don't hold the same opinions.
The best audio gear SHOULD sound more the same than different. It all should be trying to tell the musical truth. I personally believe in a properly install and set up system in a good room these things are possible. This is the one of reasons I participate here however recently these truths are not self evident.
There are levels of gear
There are levels of education
There are levels of experience
There are levels of knowledge
There are certainly levels of rooms.
There are different tastes and expectations

These differentiate what we hear and say. I have not heard your system or DDk 's so for me I don't comment. I do find it quite interesting that there are so many opinions , many of which are very negative at the same time getting the same things being very positive. This can't be. The room can't be the best at the show and terrible at the same time, that makes no sense.
My point to all this is we as a forum and IMO a society need to learn to communicate so that we can understand each other and lately on WBF IMHO that isn't happening. It is why many have told me they stopped participating. Me personally I am bored with the debate club and I am not exchanging any meaningful information nor learning or being enlightened by the verbiage.

 

[microstrip]

You know, I started this thread after reading the best cartridge thread that a new member started. I thought it was an interesting topic and that we would discuss the very idea of some audio products rising above the rest and perhaps even standing the test of time to remain or become examples to hold up and serve as inspiration to others. Ideally, we could ask what is it about these particular ones that make them special.

I started the thread with a genuine interest in learning something. It is a serious topic and I raised it with respect. I did not discuss people but rather things. I gave examples to get the discussion started.

Yes, Peter, we understood. But in reality we found that you mainly wanted to explain us why your own choices are "the best".

Almost immediately a group takes over the thread and insults me and others making it very personal. This was not about people but rather ideas and great designs.

Don't you realize we tried to debate the ideas of some particular people, not the people? Surely the number of active participants following them in this forum is so small that sometimes they easily can get mixed.

Did you realize that you ask a lot of questions but usually do not answer direct questions? And, yes, I fully agree with you we should stay polite.