Cat jl5

[ashandger]

I'm not sure how to answer the question about hall ambience - I'll have to think about that.

As for the amp support - funny story: I had a pair of HRS amp stands that I used to have under my Doshi amps. I pulled them out to use under the JL7's. I got very little bass and the highs were VERY forward. I then got advice to not use any stand with any form of mechanical isolation (which seemed to describe the HRS) so I removed the stands and the amps changed dramatically - bass appeared and the edgy highs disappeared. The JL7's have interesting flexible (rubber?) legs that provide all the isolation it needs.

Many thanks for the feedback. Very interesting about the HRS stands.

 

[Al M.]

I was able to compare the spectral dma 400 with spectral pre directly with the VTL 7.5 with VTL S400 into Wilson Alexandria XLF at innovative audio in N.Y.

Spectral is not like a tube amp. Not that it is a negative or a positive. The harmonics from tubes are obvious. Spectral does not have them. On the other hand, spectral is much cleaner, articulate, quick and dynamic and much more extended at both ends. I wouldn't say VTL has better vocals or midrange as compared to Spectral - the greater extension allows Spectral top present as if the vocalist is opening her mouth more to articulate her words.

Differences in choral were obvious with a plus going to Spectral. On the other hand, Spectral had lower midbass density. And it did not have the feeling of musical decay.

Marty has it right putting VTL pre into Spectral power, and I tried to demo with the lamm phono into the spectral gear but unfortunately the phono did not work properly.

That is one comparison. But I am not sure if we can generalize. Three years ago I had a Spectral DMC-15/DMA-260 combo in my system. It had the same tonal balance as my tube amps, and the harmonics were comparable, apart from a few electronic artifacts on voices that I did not hear from my tube amps. Both amps were equally clean, quick, articulate and dynamic. In fact, I was surprised that the micro-dynamics of the Spectral combo could match those of my tube amps; this was the first time that I heard an SS amp do great micro-dynamics (later I heard the same with Pass amps). In macro-dynamics it was a tie. The Spectral combo was somewhat more extended in the highs, but my amps were no slouch either.

All this was before I had the substantial upgrade of my amps with external power supplies, which made them considerably better than they were at that time. On the other hand, in the meantime I have heard Spectral amps that are clearly better than the combo I tried at home.

 

[Al M.]

Complex classical also sounded more convincing to me with the Pass amps mostly because of the tonal balance, resolution, and control of difficult musical lines.

Interesting, I found the opposite on all the points you mention. But then, as we already discussed off-line, we did not compare the same recordings.

The M Pros are so revealing and transparent that the character of each amp came through very clearly to me.

Indeed. the M Pros allow to easily hear the differences.

I think which one one prefers is very subjective and personal. It is what makes this hobby so interesting and surprising.

Agreed. I have found that even my seating position in my listening room is not necessarily liked equally by everyone who comes to listen. It's all personal preference.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I heard Ian's system last week with his new CAT amps. We listened first to the Pass, then to the CATs and then returned to the Pass. I made by preferences clear to both Ian and to Al. The CAT did some things well. The midrange was lush, warm, and beautiful. It really drew me into vocals and smaller scale music. Wind instruments and brass were particularly well served. But I found the Pass to sound much more tonally neutral and accurate. And natural. They had better control of the lower frequencies, and more resolution at both the highs and lows. They are more balanced to my ears.

We listened to my copy of Lorde's LP and to some Black Sabbath. The tubes were far too syrupy, transients were blunted, rhythm was lost and the bass was bloated/fat so we listened to the same Lorde track on digital. It was much better on digital and Ian's wife commented that this sounded more like with the Pass amps. Complex classical also sounded more convincing to me with the Pass amps mostly because of the tonal balance, resolution, and control of difficult musical lines.

Now, we all have our biases. I have been a fan of Pass Labs for many years. Al loves tube amps and did not seem to hear and he did not comment on the weaknesses that I heard. Ian seems to like some things about each amp. The M Pros are so revealing and transparent that the character of each amp came through very clearly to me. I think which one one prefers is very subjective and personal. It is what makes this hobby so interesting and surprising.

That is all completely fair enough!

Thank you, Peter, for breaking it to me gently.

 

[microstrip]

I'm not sure how to answer the question about hall ambience - I'll have to think about that.

As for the amp support - funny story: I had a pair of HRS amp stands that I used to have under my Doshi amps. I pulled them out to use under the JL7's. I got very little bass and the highs were VERY forward. I then got advice to not use any stand with any form of mechanical isolation (which seemed to describe the HRS) so I removed the stands and the amps changed dramatically - bass appeared and the edgy highs disappeared. The JL7's have interesting flexible (rubber?) legs that provide all the isolation it needs.

I have reported a similar effect some years ago in WBF using the Finite Elemente Pagode Reference amp stand with the Audio Research Ref150. Bass was really better integrated without the platform.

 

[microstrip]

Electrically and electronically, this makes no sense

Curiously it makes a lot of sense - electromechanically, electrically and electronically.

 

[PeterA]

That is all completely fair enough!

Thank you, Peter, for breaking it to me gently.

That is rather funny, Ron.

Knowing how this is going to end up, I just wish I could afford to buy Ian's Pass XS gear. His system has been a laboratory from which I have learned much in the past few years.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Al, yes, to add to my comments, on SET or quality valve high powered valve amps like NAT, they will do more of the positive SS characteristics of higher extensions and faster dynamics. Yours seem to be low powered valve amps so I can imagine they would share those characteristics

 

[Al M.]

Hi Al, yes, to add to my comments, on SET or quality valve high powered valve amps like NAT, they will do more of the positive SS characteristics of higher extensions and faster dynamics. Yours seem to be low powered valve amps so I can imagine they would share those characteristics

Yes, but only on my high-efficiency and rather small speakers (monitors) -- just yesterday I was delighted at the quick and dynamic transients, the fast leading edge of notes, on solo trumpet at loud volume (now that my tubes are up to par again). On most larger speakers other than horns though my low powered tube amps would 'die', or even on less efficient monitors like the Magico Q1. They would then sound sluggish, anemic and un-dynamic -- whereas amps like Spectral or Pass would just keep going even on tough loads.

 

[MadFloyd]

Hi Al, yes, to add to my comments, on SET or quality valve high powered valve amps like NAT, they will do more of the positive SS characteristics of higher extensions and faster dynamics. Yours seem to be low powered valve amps so I can imagine they would share those characteristics

Is NAT a typo or another valve company?

 

[bonzo75]

Is NAT a typo or another valve company?

You haven't read a single post from Spiritofmusic have you?

 

[bonzo75]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwMicswHMiQ

 

[MadFloyd]

You haven't read a single post from Spiritofmusic have you?

Who?

 

[bonzo75]

Who?

Lol. I would say the Entreq guy, but then you might reply with What?

 

[Ron Resnick]

And that video shows the old Magma, not the Magma New -- the one I am interested in -- with the giant GM-100 tube.

 

[MadFloyd]

Lol. I would say the Entreq guy, but then you might reply with What?

I don't get out much.

 

[bonzo75]

The NATs are amps from Serbia, SETs, but go up to 170w for their top model, though some of that is class A and class somewhat A. Complex circuitry. A well-rated German mag has rated their model below the Magmas (NAT Transmitter) consistently at 1 over much higher priced Dagostino, Ypsilon Aelius, and various other amps. Their entry level preamp that costs less than 2k in the used market has been rated next only to the 30k+ Ypsilon pre. Spiritofmusic owns their mid models and won't buy a speaker that does not work with them

 

[microstrip]

The NATs are amps from Serbia, SETs, but go up to 170w for their top model, though some of that is class A and class somewhat A. Complex circuitry. A well-rated German mag has rated their model below the Magmas (NAT Transmitter) consistently at 1 over much higher priced Dagostino, Ypsilon Aelius, and various other amps. Their entry level preamp that costs less than 2k in the used market has been rated next only to the 30k+ Ypsilon pre. Spiritofmusic owns their mid models and won't buy a speaker that does not work with them

Are you referring to this audio.de review? www.nataudio.com/products/all-products/vacuum-tube-power-amplifiers/item/download/40_299ad1d9d2800beb72233a27ae97aca7.html. Unfortunately I did not manage to get a translation from german, and people I know who can read it are not audiophiles ... All I could see is that the main negative feature is heat generation and the reviewer fear of the 1400V - already expected from SE tubes! Do you know what was the source and speakers used for this review?

 

[DaveyF]

Ron, I heard Ian's system last week with his new CAT amps. We listened first to the Pass, then to the CATs and then returned to the Pass. I made by preferences clear to both Ian and to Al. The CAT did some things well. The midrange was lush, warm, and beautiful. It really drew me into vocals and smaller scale music. Wind instruments and brass were particularly well served. But I found the Pass to sound much more tonally neutral and accurate. And natural. They had better control of the lower frequencies, and more resolution at both the highs and lows. They are more balanced to my ears.

We listened to my copy of Lorde's LP and to some Black Sabbath. The tubes were far too syrupy, transients were blunted, rhythm was lost and the bass was bloated/fat so we listened to the same Lorde track on digital. It was much better on digital and Ian's wife commented that this sounded more like with the Pass amps. Complex classical also sounded more convincing to me with the Pass amps mostly because of the tonal balance, resolution, and control of difficult musical lines.

Now, we all have our biases. I have been a fan of Pass Labs for many years. Al loves tube amps and did not seem to hear and he did not comment on the weaknesses that I heard. Ian seems to like some things about each amp. The M Pros are so revealing and transparent that the character of each amp came through very clearly to me. I think which one one prefers is very subjective and personal. It is what makes this hobby so interesting and surprising.

Interesting comments on the difference between Pass and CAT. I am fairly certain that these impressions would be possibly reversed IF Ian was using the CAT preamp along with his CAT amps. The synergy between the Pass preamp and the CAT amp perhaps needs to be called into question. There is, however, no doubt of the synergy between the CAT JL7 and the CAT preamp. The neutrality and accuracy of the Pass and the CAT would certainly, IMHO, point to an issue with the match up of this particular pairing. OTOH, the sound tracks chosen to listen to...Lorde and Black Sabbath...leave me scratching my head, LOL.

 

[jeff1225]

I will chime in here and say that the CAT amps though the MBL's was the highlight of CES last year. I've been listening to the MBL rooms for 10 years: bright, harsh and anything but enjoyable. The CAT amps brought warmth and emotion....simply amazing.

I'm obviously a Lamm fan but I would be CAT in my top 5 without a doubt based on their ability to tame the MBL beast.