Cat jl5
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Interesting comments on the difference between Pass and CAT. I am fairly certain that these impressions would be possibly reversed IF Ian was using the CAT preamp along with his CAT amps. The synergy between the Pass preamp and the CAT amp perhaps needs to be called into question. There is, however, no doubt of the synergy between the CAT JL7 and the CAT preamp. The neutrality and accuracy of the Pass and the CAT would certainly, IMHO, point to an issue with the match up of this particular pairing. OTOH, the sound tracks chosen to listen to...Lorde and Black Sabbath...leave me scratching my head, LOL.
DaveyF, If Ian had the CAT amp and preamp, that would not then change my impression of the Pass amp and preamp, much less revers it making the Pass combination sound euphonic in the midrange, lacking control in the bass and extension in the highs. How could the addition of the CAT preamp to the system change the sound of the Pass amp/preamp combination reversing it to sound like what I heard from the CAT amp/Pass preamp combination?
Regarding needing to call into question the synergy between the Pass preamp and the CAT amp, remember, fellow member, Al M., liked that combination very much according to the account he gave me after he heard Ian's system with that combination. Ian also likes many aspects of the sound with the Pass preamp and CAT amp. I am just reporting that I did not like the combination as much as I did the Pass/Pass pairing, but I did like some aspects of the sound, particularly the way wind instruments (flute and clarinet) and brass sounded. I don't know about "synergy".
My post is a direct response to Ron's question about whether or not I have yet heard Ian's system with the CAT amps. I shared my impressions of the listening we did that day. I was there to directly compare the Pass amps to the CAT amps, in the same system, without changing anything else. Ian facilitated that comparison for me. Ian did not have the CAT preamp in his system when I was there. I will not predict how it would sound in his system or with either of his amplifiers. Perhaps I will hear it some day in his system.
Regarding music selections, we also listened to Johnny Hartman "Once in Every Life", the D2D LP "For Duke", as well as a selection of Ian's wonderful classical LPs, one of which was a cello concerto and another was "Stravinsky Conducts Histoire Du Soldat Suite Pulcinella Suite".
The Lorde and Black Sabbath LPs were used to get a sense of how the CAT amps handled extremely heavy bass, rock music, and amplified instruments, as well as for a sense of energy, liveliness, and rhythm. Those selections are demanding and they told me what I wanted to know, and more. I like a variety of music, and sometimes, when listening to a system as great as Ian's, I just want to listen to music I enjoy and am very familiar with. Please don't scratch your head for too long.
HI the rankings are here. You will have to increase page size a bit https://issuu.com/gsmen/docs/audio_magazin_februar_2016/105
Yeah the heat and the fear of voltage is my concern too, though I love their preamp. I would love to do a shootout between it and Ypsilon PST one day. The only I know who has both is a dealer or distributor in Russia. The one in these rankings is the entry level pre (Symmetrical)
Peter, while the addition of the CAT preamp won't change your impression of the Pass gear;it most likely will show you how the CAT pairing can surpass the Pass gear in areas that you currently find the CAT gear lacking in relation to the Pass/CAT pairing.
IME, a pairing of a ss preamp and a tube amp is not the ideal solution. OTOH, the pairing of a tube preamp and a ss amp can sound great.
An interesting combo would be a new CAT preamp with Ian's Pass amps. Although, I am pretty certain that combo would still not sound as great as the all CAT combo.
Perhaps YMMV.
Interesting comments on the difference between Pass and CAT. I am fairly certain that these impressions would be possibly reversed IF Ian was using the CAT preamp along with his CAT amps. The synergy between the Pass preamp and the CAT amp perhaps needs to be called into question. There is, however, no doubt of the synergy between the CAT JL7 and the CAT preamp. The neutrality and accuracy of the Pass and the CAT would certainly, IMHO, point to an issue with the match up of this particular pairing. OTOH, the sound tracks chosen to listen to...Lorde and Black Sabbath...leave me scratching my head, LOL.
Davey,
Absent some technical incompatibility such as an impedance mismatch, if Peter found the CAT amps to make Ian's system sound "far too syrupy, transients were blunted, rhythm was lost and the bass was bloated/fat" why would adding more tubes ameliorate Peter's impressions?
I remember that Ken's original and primary claim to fame is his revered pre-amp, but why would adding a tube pre-amp, which is not known for sounding more transistor-y than transistor pre-amps, add back some of the solid-state sonic characteristics Peter prefers?
Interesting comments on the difference between Pass and CAT. I am fairly certain that these impressions would be possibly reversed IF Ian was using the CAT preamp along with his CAT amps. The synergy between the Pass preamp and the CAT amp perhaps needs to be called into question. There is, however, no doubt of the synergy between the CAT JL7 and the CAT preamp. The neutrality and accuracy of the Pass and the CAT would certainly, IMHO, point to an issue with the match up of this particular pairing. OTOH, the sound tracks chosen to listen to...Lorde and Black Sabbath...leave me scratching my head, LOL.
I don't think we listened to either of those LPs on the Pass. Black Sabbath sounded unbelievably good to my ears. I'm picky and can usually easy nitpick aspects of any presentation, but I had no complaints with Black Sabbath!
I owned a Hovland tube preamp for many years and it was always a nightmare trying to match the output impedance to tube or solid state amps. The finicky nature of matching between brands, topologies and output divices cannot be over stated.
Exactly. It's quite possible the Pass preamp is darker and slower than the CAT preamp.
Thank you for clarifying your earlier statement. I have never heard the CAT pre but would be interested in hearing it with one of the CAT amplifiers. One thing is for certain: The Magico M Pros will reveal the quality of the electronics driving the speakers.
Does CAT make a phono stage? If not, what would you suggest Ian use for analog if he ends up selling all of his Pass XS gear?
For those who like valves and magico, might want to try the Stenheim alumine 5. It was one of the two speakers that impressed me most in Munich this year. It is also made by an ex Goldmund engineer and is a aluminium casing.
Show dems are not the best but it was doing great, despite being small and in the corner of a small room. Retail is 45k euro, said to be 95 db at 8 ohms, so you can voice it with your SET.
Audio arts in NYC has it, do you might want to pay a visit to check. At the show it seemed incredibly fast and dynamic, great bass, and large scale.
Show dems are not the best but it was doing great, despite being small and in the corner of a small room. Retail is 45k euro, said to be 95 db at 8 ohms, so you can voice it with your SET.
Audio arts in NYC has it, do you might want to pay a visit to check. At the show it seemed incredibly fast and dynamic, great bass, and large scale.
So this morning I re-inserted the HRS stands. It's like I had different amps - tonally it was more towards solid state in terms of openness and brightness with less midbass. Actually sounded pretty good (the amps are fully broken in now compared to when I last had them on these stands).
But there's no doubt it changes the character of the presentation. It's not subtle.
Ken used to tell his clients who absolutely needed a solid state amp to use the Symphonic Line Kraft, full class A, 400w (now in 250 and 300w configs), doubling down to 1 ohm, from Germany. It used to work perfectly fine with his CAT pre and was voiced with it.
Caesar uses that config with his MBLs. Haven't heard the amps myself but sounds like a good combo for tough to drive speakers. There is also a guy in the US who restores and mods the amps. Loads of feedback on the Gon.
Caesar uses that config with his MBLs. Haven't heard the amps myself but sounds like a good combo for tough to drive speakers. There is also a guy in the US who restores and mods the amps. Loads of feedback on the Gon.
Ian, That is very interesting. Didn't the designer suggest that you remove the HRS from under the CAT amps?
Regarding my recent listening impressions, I am now beginning to think that perhaps some of the lack of definition, clarity and extension when we listened to those thick LP reissues was a result of your new Ortofon A95 cartridge being very finicky about proper SRA. I remember that we did raise your arm a couple of times and that some LPs sounded better than others. My older, thinner LPs sounded better with the arm at the height it was. The LPs that I brought over all have different SRA settings and I know that you don't bother with adjusting that setting for individual pressings, so perhaps that explains some of my impressions. I do remember telling you that I preferred the resolution of your ZYX from the last time I heard your system and perhaps I just don't care for the A95's character with the tube amps. Have you experimented with loading on the new cartridge? I guess I did not the importance of the new cartridge in your system since the last time I was there.
Have you reinstalled the ZYX in your arm? Perhaps that will add a whole new interaction with your CAT amps.
Many years ago, a good a'phile friend of mine was getting excellent sound with a CAT preamp and a Symphonic line amp. At the time, he was driving a fairly inefficient pair of Hales speakers and in a large room.
I believe Ken and Klaus well understand the concept of synergy with electronics.
Hi Ian,
Congrats on the CAT amps with your M-Pro's! I bet they sound phenomenal. I have to agree with DaveyF about replacing the Pass XS Pre with the CAT preamp with phono stage. I don't think you have the final word on the CAT sound until you try this combo. IMO, it would be like having the Pass XS Pre with the ARC Ref250SE, instead of the ARC Ref10. You may be missing out on some serious synergy. Best to give it a try.
All the best,
Ken
Congrats on the CAT amps with your M-Pro's! I bet they sound phenomenal. I have to agree with DaveyF about replacing the Pass XS Pre with the CAT preamp with phono stage. I don't think you have the final word on the CAT sound until you try this combo. IMO, it would be like having the Pass XS Pre with the ARC Ref250SE, instead of the ARC Ref10. You may be missing out on some serious synergy. Best to give it a try.
All the best,
Ken
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