CH Precision A1 VS Viva Aurora mono

[gian60]

Right

 

[gian60]

Hi Tang
in Italy only my friend bought L1 and P1
In Italy the economy is disaster in last 2 years and people don't spend money for hifi.
Spend for medium product second hand

 

[gian60]

The best sound, for me,is with horn speaker made with driver ALE,Goto,YL,Kanno,WE.
I know well this sound because i am friend with Yamamura and Imai since 1989.
I also had a 3 way ALE with woofer 4000,mid 4550,tweeter 1750 DEP with super tweeter Yamamura,a Tad 703 modified.
This from 1994,then some years later for difference reason i sold,using then a monrovia Audiotekne in carbon block with ALE 1750.

Then Yamamura did a system for my friend,in 15 years,every year improved,and i always listened every improvement,starting with 3 way ALE,DE series,and finish in 6 way with Basshorn with driver ALE D160 with the weight of 150kg.
Before my friend finish the system with the DEP serie,the top in production,all in permendule,and then changed with a special edition made for him from Yamamura and Mr. Endo,owner of ALE.
The weight of this driver is 100 kg each while the DEP driver is 23 kg,and then they did the beryllium diaphragm

Then modified the horn.Ale horn has the perfect cut for their driver but are not very good and if you touch ring like one bell,so Yamamura,and also Imai in their system,modified with graphite high density or carbon block or cork.

ampli are 12 mono amp from yamamura transistor in current of 45 watt .
When you listen this system you are with a natural,palpable sound that is incredible.
In Italy the price list of one couple of ALE dep is 23.000 euro while this special edition is 60/70.000 euro.
I always wanted do a system for me 4 or 5 way with Ale dep,but with the price list of more than 100.000 euro for driver.plus horn,plus modification of the horn,plus network,plus tweak,i stop my project.

All the horn system i listen in Munich,no one like me,i found bad sound and Vox olympian i like but not a lot,after listening these products from many years,with an incredible price.

So coming back to a normal good system i bought Montagna at a good price and i like a lot because is 98 db so high efficiency,network very simple and speaker is very fast and quality good for the good quality of driver,all hand made in Montagna and with magnet in Maxalco,that is an Alnico V with oriented crystal.
I found CH a perfect match with this speaker.
Then there are sure better things but i am very satisfied of this system.
That's all

 

[gian60]

this is the system,one channel,of my friend




below you can see the 1750 DEP covered from carbon block and on top you can see the special edition,much bigger

 

[Ron Resnick]

Today at home if my friend with Wilson Alexandria we tried CH A1 mono vs his amp Viva Aurora mono,very good tube amp with tube 845.

Viva is considered one of the best tube amp in the world,and his sound is very good,but we found CH better in every parameter.
We were in 3 and all 100% agree

Sound was more dynamic,bigger image,bass more controlled and clean,high more open,more transparent and also voices were more natural and sound more fast

Regards
Gianluigi

Dear Gian,

I read this over and over and, respectfully, I do not understand how you suddenly go from years of SET to solid-state. I am not disagreeing with or challenging your conclusion; I am simply curious about the preference ordering and the decision process which led you there.

"Sound was more dynamic,bigger image,bass more controlled and clean,high more open,more transparent and also voices were more natural and sound more fast" sounds to me, in every element other than "voices were more natural," like the classic sonic attributes people say to explain why they prefer solid-state over tubes. I understand those sonic preferences, and I agree that solid-state satisfies those preferences.

I have trouble understanding how voices could sound more natural or more real with solid-state than with tubes.

Which sound (Viva or CH) was more musical to you (whatever we mean by "musical" when we ask that question!)?

Which midrange sound seemed more like a live voice singing in the room?

When you reflect on these questions do you feel that your sonic preferences -- your priorities in sound reproduction -- have evolved or changed over time? Or do you feel that your preferences (your stereo system objectives) have not changed, and that you simply are coming to different conclusions on the same set of facts than the conclusions you reached earlier in your audio travels?

I can hear how solid-state can be more dynamic and controlled than tubes, and can have cleaner and more open highs than tubes, but that still does not mean that I prefer the overall sound of solid-state to the overall sound of tubes.

 

[bonzo75]

Mike will produce most natural vocals by letting the recording show through with SS. Ribbons when driven properly, with SS gear will produce superbly natural vocals then if under driven by triodes. Also, as mentioned in the compare between VTL and spectral, while VTL had more harmonics, it made the singer's sound seem half open, while with spectral the singer was opening the mouth wider, which was more natural. Also check with Marty for impressions on vocals when he moved from Siegfried to spectral. The Gamut sounded better on my Logans for vocals than the AR ref 110 because it was driving it better rather than fuzzy. High end triodes are fine if used on horns. All imo.

I was listening to Monte Verdi's Vespers at sheldonian last Friday and was thinking that the only speakers capable of producing such vocals, like with Bach's st Matthews passion, are Christoph's scintilla driven by Krell. No set horn I know can do that, though I prefer many instruments on the latter

The yamamura Gian writes about is driven by SS

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thanks Gian, Ron and Ked, this recent discussion and the points reflecting on SS and Set and the varying expectations and experiences are really interesting. The open discussion without all the hysteria that can so often accompany this particular topic is very cool.

 

[awsmone]

I must agree with Ked on this Ron

Going from VTL seigfrieds on Rockport ARRAKIS and or Dynaudio evidence to Goldmund 2500 or Burmester in mono config was like night and day in quality in every regards

 

[Tango]

I have been communicating with Gian a lot and have been examining his preferences in sound through his comments.
I think he is a very open person to modern sound, at the same time he likes to retain the essense of horn and tube sound. He told me the best sound he hear from any speakers is Montagna. It has horn sound without horn, but with very fast, very open, very efficient almost 100 db, and with high low extension. Without this Montagna, I dont think he would switch to solid stage amp. So my guess, it is the synergy of Montagna and CH that retain the sound of horn, tube electronics, made him switch to CH...not just any solid stage.

Thats my thought. And I am probably not even close when Gian answer the question...hahahaha

Tang

Bottom line: Good sound is good sound. Doesnt matter ss or tube as long as they heavenly match with your speakers. Be true to your ears.

 

[Sablon Audio]

Is worth noting that Avantgarde also use sand amps with their horn speakers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike will produce most natural vocals by letting the recording show through with SS. Ribbons when driven properly, with SS gear will produce superbly natural vocals then if under driven by triodes. Also, as mentioned in the compare between VTL and spectral, while VTL had more harmonics, it made the singer's sound seem half open, while with spectral the singer was opening the mouth wider, which was more natural. Also check with Marty for impressions on vocals when he moved from Siegfried to spectral. The Gamut sounded better on my Logans for vocals than the AR ref 110 because it was driving it better rather than fuzzy. High end triodes are fine if used on horns. All imo.

I was listening to Monte Verdi's Vespers at sheldonian last Friday and was thinking that the only speakers capable of producing such vocals, like with Bach's st Matthews passion, are Christoph's scintilla driven by Krell. No set horn I know can do that, though I prefer many instruments on the latter

The yamamura Gian writes about is driven by SS

I will reply more fully later, but where, for you, do hybrids (e.g., KR Audio) fall on this naturalness of vocals taxonomy?

 

[morricab]

Is worth noting that Avantgarde also use sand amps with their horn speakers.

And I have yet to hear AG sound good with it's own SS amps. Maybe that speaks to the amps themselves or the combination of AG horns with SS in general.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I already told I listen music always with display at 0 watt or arrive Maximo at 1/2 watt
Sometimes I listen some At loud level
100/200 watt peak with blues and is good
When I listen chamber music Maximo I see 1 or 2 watt

on my SS dart 458's i'm at '0' RMS and '0' peak 95% of the time on my 97db, 7 ohm MM7 main towers.

when i'm pushing jazz/big band/rock and get a really hard edged in-your-face horn or drum whack i'll see peaks into the 150's and RMS into the teens. 'Jingo' (Santana) 45rpm at warp 9+ gets into 150+ on Carlos's guitar peaks. 70's and 80's peaks on the drum beats.

there is never any lack of ease or even a hint of stress or hardness. no 'cringe' factor at all.

ss at the top of the food chain get's it all. great 1st watt, to infinity (human tolerance limits) with efficient speakers.

as I tweak resonance and grounding I'm seeing where the sources of distortion/smearing were as they clear up......one by one. solid state really tells you everything.

 

[bonzo75]

I will reply more fully later, but where, for you, do hybrids (e.g., KR Audio) fall on this naturalness of vocals taxonomy?

Never considered them hybrid but they are superbly natural, but my point is like all amps limited by the speakers they can drive. The speakers I have heard them on cannot do vocals like an apogee can

 

[gian60]

Dear Ron,
i am sorry for my poor English,but Ked and Tang explain very well my ideas and also Mike explain very well and had same experience like mine.
90% i see on display of M1 0 watt,but with some music go to 100/200 watt very easily without limitation,this is also a real sound.

 

[gian60]

I always had tube since 1978 till 2 years ago.
I had triode tube since 1990,but i had since 1978 ARC SP3,D75,Japanese Hal Amp preamp,SP8 with Counterpoint SA2,SP 10,SP 11,Jadis 30,80,200,500,Panthere,similar to Futterman,Quicksilver,Klimo OTL,Counterpoint SA 4,Michelson & Austin TVA1.
Then i always had collection since 25 years to listen sometimes in second/third system,and i love them,vintage tube amp and i had together for a lot of years
Radford sta 15,Quad II,Leak TL 12,MC 240,MC30,MC75,Neiro silver,Shindo Shinonia,ARC D79
Now i solo all except Redford.

Only from 1987 to 1990 i listen with Mark Levinson ML 6B and 4 pair bridge of ML 20
In that period i found ML better than tube Jadis,ARC and CJ
Triode amp arrived in Italy in 1990 with Yamamura.
So now i like more CH than triode like in 1987 i liked more ML against tube.
I don't tell i prefer more TT than triode,i like CH,Vitus i listen only 2 times in Munich and i found a little dark sound while Dartz pre and 458 i never listen.
I listen and i know very very well Gryphon Mephisto,Colosseum,D'Agostino,Krell Evo One,ML 32 and 33,Burmeister 808 with 911,Rowland 925,Esoteric Grandioso,Pass XS and XS 300,FM 411,Viola Bravo
These are good but i don't like a lot and i never will change triode with this.
But there are other good TT amp and i like a lot also www.audio-consulting.ch and Technical Brain that i never listen but has to be amazing

 

[gian60]

Natural sound you listen only in live music,but i have idea of natural sound in hifi system because i was lucky to met and became friend from 1990 with Yamamura and then Imai of Audiotekne,also i knew
Sakuma,Endo of ALE,Uchida of Tamura trans that teach me a lot of things.

In 1990 was very funny
After 10 years of trial and spent a lot of money,i had Apogee,Quad,ML,IMF,Acoustat,Timpany IV,and we did also in one weekend trial in my home with ML 20,Rowland M7,Cello Performance,Jadis 500,and YBA mono Signature,
i had in 1990 an incredible system for that years,
Lurne' j4 with Pluto arm
ML 6B
LNC 2 mono
4 pair bridge N 20
Soundlab A1 with sub B1
System was more than amazing.
Then arrived in Italy Be Yamamura and i was among the first to meet him and we became very friend,i also did some winter holiday with our girls
and he started to speak to me and my friends of 300B,845,trans in mumetal and superpermalloy,Graphite to reduce vibration,cable without oxygen,horn speaker,special driver,ecc,ecc
and we became crazy.
Then i told him,dear Be,now we are friend so please tell me what do you think of my system.
His answer,Dear Gian,sorry to tell you,but this sound is terrible.
I was shocked.

Then he brought to my home one cartridge like Audiotekne,one amp with 845 and monrovia speaker with super tweeter he modified one tad 703,and special cable he did and i understand immediately he had reason
Sound of my system was dark,slow,without high frequency and not natural,so i sold everything and started with triode Yamamura,Audiotekne,ANj,Kondo and monovia and simple horn speaker with Ale medium

 

[gian60]

Then for me in the market there are a good choice of cartridge,turntable,amp,cable,but i always find difficult to find a speaker because i have in mind monrovia and ale horn
I visit Munich exhibition for 3 years but never found a speaker for me even at very high cost.A lot of good but no one impress me.
I had plan to do ale horn but to do 4/5 way need DEP serie that cost 23.500 euro one pair so need more than 100.000 euro for driver.Then horn,but WE and ALE horn are too old and ring like bell so need modification,then network,ecc,ecc,so i can't spend all this money and i found in Montagna a speaker similar to horn without lack of the horn and at very good price because i can bought directly from producer.
So i am very happy on my system,and with tweak i will do next year with room treatment,finish all Kuro cable,Change rack because i have very old and resonant,try Entreq or telos,and could be Stacker,i think to increase a lot the performance .

Then some told me my system is amazing and i have a friend that has Tannoy Westminster royal,that i don't like because sound of his system is dark,slow,with roll off,and heavy on mid bass,and he doesn't like my system because for him sound is too fast.
So all is relative.

I wrote this like to chat with some friend in one pub.
Regards
Gianluigi

 

[gian60]

Also depend what you listen
I have a friend who listen 99% chamber music in a small room and he never will change his quad 63 and another one who listen only rock music and has jbl 4343 biamp and is amazing sound also.
I listen everything so my system can play everything

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike will produce most natural vocals by letting the recording show through with SS. Ribbons when driven properly, with SS gear will produce superbly natural vocals then if under driven by triodes. Also, as mentioned in the compare between VTL and spectral, while VTL had more harmonics, it made the singer's sound seem half open, while with spectral the singer was opening the mouth wider, which was more natural. Also check with Marty for impressions on vocals when he moved from Siegfried to spectral. The Gamut sounded better on my Logans for vocals than the AR ref 110 because it was driving it better rather than fuzzy. High end triodes are fine if used on horns. All imo.

I was listening to Monte Verdi's Vespers at sheldonian last Friday and was thinking that the only speakers capable of producing such vocals, like with Bach's st Matthews passion, are Christoph's scintilla driven by Krell. No set horn I know can do that, though I prefer many instruments on the latter

The yamamura Gian writes about is driven by SS

I would like to try to "unpack" a couple of these points.

1) I think it is important to separate different types of ribbons. I probably agree with you that a Scintilla -- and original Apogees in general -- needs to be driven with solid-state. On Apogees I think you may very well need a lot of current to kick them "alive."

But I really think we should distinguish the amp/driving needs of Apogee ribbons from the amp/driving needs of Magnepan/Analysis Audio/Genesis Technologies/Pendragon type ribbons. I defer to Gary but as far as I understand a majority of owners of Genesis 1.1/1.2/Dragon/Prime drive their midrange/ribbon panels with tube amplifiers. Many, many audiophiles use tubes on Magnepan and Analysis Audio, and I think that whether vocals on these ribbons sound more natural and real with tubes or transistors is purely a matter of personal preference.

2) "Ribbons when driven properly, with SS gear will produce superbly natural vocals then if under driven by triodes." I think everyone will agree with this. But here you are making an unfair comparison.

If the ribbon is under-driven by tubes then that is the wrong triode amplifier to compare with the solid-state amplifier in question. Effectively you saying here that a speaker should not be underdriven with triodes, but I think we would all agree that a speaker should not be underdriven by whatever amplifier is selected for it.

So the proper comparison is not solid-state versus inadequate tube amplifiers; the proper comparison is a solid-state amplifier with a tube amplifier that is capable of driving the speakers.

3) VTL versus Spectral is one data point comparison on a particular system with particular speakers. I completely accept your conclusion in that one particular comparison, but that does not explain your more general assertion view that transistors in general are going to make vocals sound more natural than low power (under-driving) tube amps will make vocals sound.

4) As a result of my amplifier research and replies to my amplifier inquiry thread postings, we have come up with a set of interesting and high-power SET and PSET amplifiers, all of which operate in Class A:

-- MastersounD PF100 (PSET - 117 watts)

-- Triode Corp. Reference M212 (PSET - 100 watts)

-- Wavac 833 (SET - 150 watts)

-- KR Audio Kronzilla DXL (PSET - 200 watts (transistor driver stage)

It is these amplifiers which should be compared to solid-state on vocals, not a 30 watt Viva Aurora, which simply may not be able to drive the speaker in question.