Comparing Reissued LPs to Analogue Productions Tapes

[hvbias]

The CC&R albums I have including Willy and the Poorboys was released by AcousTech and is no longer in production it is true there are a few songs missing on this album AcousTech released most of the CC&R albums in 45RPM, it is not an Analog Production.

AcousTech was the name of Kevin Gray's old mastering company, now called Cohearent. The box set you are referring to was released on Analogue Productions.

https://www.discogs.com/Creedence-Clearwater-Revival-Absolute-Originals/release/4768242

 

[15IPS]

While tape may be preferred, it’s important to note whether said tape is a studio master/safety copy ( uncompressed) vs the RIAA EQ’d Tape master/safety that will sound a bit compressed in comparison and is used to make the LP master lacquer.

With original RCA releases, (classical only) the lacquers were cut immediately after production of the session mixdown tape. The two-track prerecords were made from a copy of the mixdown tape many months later. High frequencies on Scotch 111 fade somewhat after 48 hours, and RCA knew this.

 

[Ron Resnick]

With original RCA releases, (classical only) the lacquers were cut immediately after production of the session mixdown tape. The two-track prerecords were made from a copy of the mixdown tape many months later. High frequencies on Scotch 111 fade somewhat after 48 hours, and RCA knew this.

That is very interesting.

 

[Pacha]

I have a decent size collection of early RCA, 2 track 7.5 ips tapes (approx 3 hundred) and many of the Shaded and White Dog (approx 5 hundred) pressing of the same pieces. When I compare the tape to the LP at least 75% of the time I prefer the tape, too many of the LPs rely on stamper numbers on how they sound with variations ranging from very small to quite large. I don’t have any of the AP or other tapes as most of the ones I‘ve seen are for CCIR playback and all my Revox decks are NAB.

 

[Ron Resnick]

That is very interesting. I would not have predicted that you would prefer the tapes 75% of the time, especially with 7.5ips tapes.

 

[Pacha]

That is very interesting. I would not have predicted that you would prefer the tapes 75% of the time, especially with 7.5ips tapes.

The early RCA tapes have held up very well, with the LPs even different stampers can be very different and of course condition of the LPs varies greatly between NM and VG, anything less than VG I don’t keep unless it’s very rare and I don’t have a better copy. Both my 2 track and 4 track decks have been completely restored by me and calibrated carefully. What would you have thought on this?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't know. My personal experience with tape is extremely limited. It would think it depends almost entirely on the nature of the tapes in question.

I would think that actual master tapes and actual safety copies of actual master tapes would beat LPs. Even there, I don't know to what extent the lower tape speed diminishes an initial tape advantage, if any.

Outside of master tapes and safety copies I have found that more often than not careful LP reissues beat later generation tapes in circulation.

I have proven to myself so far that, beyond master tapes and safety copies thereof, just having a title on tape does not, without more, predict anything.

Two examples outside of masters and safety copies: I have a tape of Soular Energy which beats every LP of that title I have heard. I have three different tapes of The Doors and each of them is inferior to two different LP reissues to which I have compared them.

My personal tape project is totally speculative and based almost entirely on a group of safety copies.* I selected a 30ips capable machine specifically in the hope that someday I will be able to play this particular set of tapes.

*Unexpectedly I have in this collection two mix-down to 2 track masters of a famous pop song which are believed to be the original master tapes. While researching on the internet the origin and provenance of these tapes I discovered that Art Dudley knew all about them. So I believe they are real.

 

[astrotoy]

I have a decent size collection of early RCA, 2 track 7.5 ips tapes (approx 3 hundred) and many of the Shaded and White Dog (approx 5 hundred) pressing of the same pieces. When I compare the tape to the LP at least 75% of the time I prefer the tape, too many of the LPs rely on stamper numbers on how they sound with variations ranging from very small to quite large. I don’t have any of the AP or other tapes as most of the ones I‘ve seen are for CCIR playback and all my Revox decks are NAB.

You have much more than a decent collection of the early 2 track RCAs. AFAIK the earliest ones were released before the vinyl versions. The earliest albums were recorded in 1954 (like Also Sprach Zarathustra and Gaite Parisienne, maybe Daphnis et Chloe), well before their vinyl release in 1958. I also believe that they were recorded in real time (someone correct me if I am wrong), rather than at high speed, which was true of the 1/4 track stereo tapes released later. One problem with some of those early issues is that some only contained one piece, much shorter than the vinyl release. I have about 20 of the early RCA's and quite a few are very short - 15-20 minutes or so. Some, like the Gaite Parisienne or the Heifetz Brahms Violin Concerto have the entire album (35-40 minutes). The early releases are all on acetate.

There was an earlier posting from 2019 that said the vinyl lacquers were cut right after the mixdown tapes were made, while the prerecorded tapes were made a few months later. Can that be true for the early tapes - were vinyl lacquers cut several years before the actual vinyl pressings were made? Doesn't seem correct?

Larry

 

[Pacha]

I remember a conversation I had with David Fletcher when I was purchasing his SOTA Millennia prototype #1. It had just returned from being reviewed by Harry Pearson of TAS, the review was never published that I’m aware of due to Fletcher selling the company. As we talked I mentioned my RCA 2 track tapes and he stated that Pearson revealed they were one of his audio regrets as they out performed their LP counterparts more often than not and he wished that TAS had spent more energy in pursuing them as a standard of the High End of audio. I still have that Millennia and it was recently upgraded to the newest specs by SOTA.

 

[assessor43]

I would think at some point the earliest pressings would best represent the original master tapes even better than the existing tapes are today.

 

[Pacha]

I would think at some point the earliest pressings would best represent the original master tapes even better than the existing tapes are today.

What would be your reasoning for this? I have some SD RCAs that have later stamper numbers, s10 vs s1 in one case, and the later stamper is by far the better sounding album.

 

[assessor43]

maybe not all the time but most of time IME, the earlier pressings do indeed sound better than later pressings. The tape was fresh and there is almost always more air, sense of space, and better lower midrange on original master tape 1st pressings. IMO.

 

[Pacha]

maybe not all the time but most of time IME, the earlier pressings do indeed sound better than later pressings. The tape was fresh and there is almost always more air, sense of space, and better lower midrange on original master tape 1st pressings. IMO.

I’ll respect your opinion but, my experience with my approximately 300 early RCA 2 track tapes compared with my SD and WD RCA pressings doesn’t agree. We still can enjoy our music!

 

[assessor43]

Some of those old RCA's are the best sounding recordings I own period. Take for example, Sonny Rollins The Bridge. On the original I can hear the sounds of a high hat and the decay around the cymbal as it swivels on its stand. i can rarely here that type of effect on later pressings of the same recording. Although there are some reissues that do sound very good and better than the originals. Same thing with Chet Atkins in Hollywood, Analogue Productions reissue vs. the original. There is just so much more information on a clean copy of the original. The problem is finding clean originals which is why reissues are a necessity for many recordings not to mention that the original tapes may be damaged or simply may not exist. Song for My Father by Horace Silver has Warble on the first track lets say if you purchased it from Music Matters who does pretty good job with rare original recordings. I believe that track is digitally alterred on the music matters record to try to mask the warble The original does not have that warble and sounds very good, better than the Music Matters reissue.

Try to find a mono copy of Miles Davis Kind of Blue from the Original Master tapes. You wont because the master tapes from that recording do not exist and the original is really the only way to appreciate that album in mono.

 

[astrotoy]

Here is a very good website which shows just about all of the RCA 2 track tapes that RCA released including pictures of the tapes.

RCA Victor pre-recorded 2-Track Stacked or In-Line STEREO Reel-to-Reel tapes 1954-56

There are three different files, with the mono tapes (usually using the left and right channels with separate information), the first stereo tapes from 1954 to 1957, and a second set of stereo tapes from 1957-1960. RCA ended producing 2 track tapes in 1960, so any album, like the Sonny Rollins The Bridge (recorded in 1962) never was released on 2 track by RCA. The majority of the 2 track tapes were issued before the summer of 1958, when RCA released their first stereo records. So for those tapes, it seems impossible that the vinyl lacquers were cut before the tapes were made. If anyone knows if RCA cut lacquers say in 1954 when the first stereo tapes were recorded and kept them until 1958 when they released the first stereo records, please let me know. That seems impossible to me.

The earliest stereo tapes from RCA are all classical, with pop albums starting to appear in 1957. By the end of the 2 track tapes starting in 1959, almost all the titles were pop. Since I only have classical RCA 2 track tapes, all of them appear to have been recorded prior to August, 1958 when RCA began releasing stereo records. So my assumption is that these tapes were duplicated before any stereo lacquers were cut from the original tapes. Any high frequency loss from the loss of freshness of the original tapes should be more pronounced in the vinyl than the tapes.

Pacha, your 300 RCA early 2 track tapes looks like it could well be very close to a complete collection - there are only about that many tapes pictured on the website that I have listed above, including all the different variants in covers for the tapes. You have a very valuable collection!

Larry

 

[andromedaaudio]

Hai Larry ,


I must say i have /heard better orchestra on tape then the Mussorgsky / Ochestra tape .
I like the Jesse Colin live tape much more .
How is the 1970 s piano tape quality compared to some of the other piano tapes you have ?
I have many tapes from resellers id say 25 % of the tapes is outstanding, there is a lot of quality difference going from one tape issuer to the other .
It has the potential to be outstanding i think , but not many actually use the potential to its limit




Brg HJ

 

[Pacha]

Here is a very good website which shows just about all of the RCA 2 track tapes that RCA released including pictures of the tapes.

RCA Victor pre-recorded 2-Track Stacked or In-Line STEREO Reel-to-Reel tapes 1954-56

There are three different files, with the mono tapes (usually using the left and right channels with separate information), the first stereo tapes from 1954 to 1957, and a second set of stereo tapes from 1957-1960. RCA ended producing 2 track tapes in 1960, so any album, like the Sonny Rollins The Bridge (recorded in 1962) never was released on 2 track by RCA. The majority of the 2 track tapes were issued before the summer of 1958, when RCA released their first stereo records. So for those tapes, it seems impossible that the vinyl lacquers were cut before the tapes were made. If anyone knows if RCA cut lacquers say in 1954 when the first stereo tapes were recorded and kept them until 1958 when they released the first stereo records, please let me know. That seems impossible to me.

The earliest stereo tapes from RCA are all classical, with pop albums starting to appear in 1957. By the end of the 2 track tapes starting in 1959, almost all the titles were pop. Since I only have classical RCA 2 track tapes, all of them appear to have been recorded prior to August, 1958 when RCA began releasing stereo records. So my assumption is that these tapes were duplicated before any stereo lacquers were cut from the original tapes. Any high frequency loss from the loss of freshness of the original tapes should be more pronounced in the vinyl than the tapes.

Pacha, your 300 RCA early 2 track tapes looks like it could well be very close to a complete collection - there are only about that many tapes pictured on the website that I have listed above, including all the different variants in covers for the tapes. You have a very valuable collection!

Larry

Hi Larry, Thanks for the web site, I'll check it out. I only have a dozen or so of the mono tapes with the rest being stereo. Also, some are duplicates with different covers and one has no original cover but, a plain box I pasted covers made from a scan of the original box a friend had. I acquired most these in the late 50s through the 60s, before they were expensive, some I even purchased from Good Will for $1 a piece in the 80s. I could not have acquired these at the prices they sell for today on the auction sites etc.

 

[Pacha]

Thanks again for that fabulous website on the RCA R2R tapes. I spent much time looking it over last night and learned many things about the tapes I have. I also noted that I have at least one, XPS 3, a Pop Preview, that I didn't see listed, although I could have missed it as it was quite late when I was perusing the site.

 

[Pacha]

You have much more than a decent collection of the early 2 track RCAs. AFAIK the earliest ones were released before the vinyl versions. The earliest albums were recorded in 1954 (like Also Sprach Zarathustra and Gaite Parisienne, maybe Daphnis et Chloe), well before their vinyl release in 1958. I also believe that they were recorded in real time (someone correct me if I am wrong), rather than at high speed, which was true of the 1/4 track stereo tapes released later. One problem with some of those early issues is that some only contained one piece, much shorter than the vinyl release. I have about 20 of the early RCA's and quite a few are very short - 15-20 minutes or so. Some, like the Gaite Parisienne or the Heifetz Brahms Violin Concerto have the entire album (35-40 minutes). The early releases are all on acetate.

There was an earlier posting from 2019 that said the vinyl lacquers were cut right after the mixdown tapes were made, while the prerecorded tapes were made a few months later. Can that be true for the early tapes - were vinyl lacquers cut several years before the actual vinyl pressings were made? Doesn't seem correct?

Larry

Sorry to revive an older thread, I decided after re-readding this reply to put my collection of RCA two track tapes into a spreadsheet and compare with the information on the web site recommended. After removing doubles and mono tapes, it appears I'm only missing 17 stereo two track tapes from the RCA releases. There are also three that I wouldn't mind have a better copy. At what seem to be todays going prices, completing this collection is not a reasonable ambition but, I do keep looking. I really enjoy these tapes and I wish they weren't an investment item as many more people my age and maybe younger would find them at least interesting and enjoyable.