Components Specifications use and the Truth

[DACMan]

Hmmmmm. There's no spec for tonality.....
My response is that there's no spec for it because it doesn't exist.....

If all amplifiers were perfect amplifiers, then they would all sound exactly alike, and there would be nothing to discuss.
If there was one perfect amplifier, and we all wanted perfect amplifiers, then every other manufacturer would be out of business in a week.
A perfect amplifier would be "a straight wire with gain" (not my definition), and so would have no tonality
(by any definition I've heard - just like really pure water has no taste).

All amplifiers are, therefore, imperfect, each with different imperfections.
The word "tonality" is just a way of putting a positive spin on that fact.

Specifications describe the imperfections in various amplifiers one way;
"tonality" is just a different way of describing them.
(Sometimes it can be difficult or impossible to directly equate the two descriptions, but sometimes not.)

Therefore, since my goal is "a straight wire with gain", in your paradigm, my goal is "an amplifier with NO tonality"...
your goals, and mileage, may vary.

Since my (and many others) goal is "zero tonality", and that more or less equates to "flat frequency response and no distortion",
while we can't accurately interpret the variations, it at least suggests that amplifiers with the flattest frequency response and
lowest distortion are likely to be the ones closest to our goal.

[For example, I don't know which amplifier I would consider 'the best one", but I am absolutely certain
that a SET, with 10% distortion, cannot POSSIBLY be it, because the 10% THD is a deal-breaker.]

So why do you all waste so much time arguing about specs anyway?

There is no real spec for tonality...

Every amplifier designer I've ever met (and I've met most of the majors) all say measurements are a place to START not a place to END.

Just seems like a big excuse for either justifying your purchase or NOT listening to music.

Gotta go, big pile of records just arrived and I know what I'd rather be doing!

 

[mep]

Hmmmmm. There's no spec for tonality.....
My response is that there's no spec for it because it doesn't exist.....

If all amplifiers were perfect amplifiers, then they would all sound exactly alike, and there would be nothing to discuss.
If there was one perfect amplifier, and we all wanted perfect amplifiers, then every other manufacturer would be out of business in a week.
A perfect amplifier would be "a straight wire with gain" (not my definition), and so would have no tonality
(by any definition I've heard - just like really pure water has no taste).

All amplifiers are, therefore, imperfect, each with different imperfections.
The word "tonality" is just a way of putting a positive spin on that fact.

You are confusing the ability of an amplifier to amplify the tonality that was captured in a recording and let you hear it with tonality being a distortion generated by amplifiers.

 

[mep]

For clarity, if you put all or any of the current reference amps in a room, and listened to each one, each would sound different as long as the test was sighted. However, technically, each amp distorts in its own way. None passes on the accurate tonality of the record, each passes on the distortion of itself though, in a pure technical sense.

Really Tom? Are you really trying to say that the distortion from modern amplifiers is so high that it swamps the information from the source?

 

[mep]

Originally Posted by DACMan
Hmmmmm. There's no spec for tonality.....
My response is that there's no spec for it because it doesn't exist.....

If all amplifiers were perfect amplifiers, then they would all sound exactly alike, and there would be nothing to discuss.
If there was one perfect amplifier, and we all wanted perfect amplifiers, then every other manufacturer would be out of business in a week.
A perfect amplifier would be "a straight wire with gain" (not my definition), and so would have no tonality
(by any definition I've heard - just like really pure water has no taste).

All amplifiers are, therefore, imperfect, each with different imperfections.
The word "tonality" is just a way of putting a positive spin on that fact.





This is my take on DACmans post.
For clarity, if you put all or any of the current reference amps in a room, and listened to each one, each would sound different as long as the test was sighted. However, technically, each amp distorts in its own way. None passes on the accurate tonality of the record, each passes on the distortion of itself though, in a pure technical sense.
I just happen to believe that I can get two amps from different manufacturers together and no one on a quick A/B could tell them apart. It does not mean the amps are "correct" but it does mean their distortions are "the same enough". Ears are great but they are limited and the simple masking effect is proof they only tell part of the story.

OK Tom, we will try it your way. I thought the point I was asking you about was pretty clear.

 

[Atmasphere]

Hmmmmm. There's no spec for tonality.....
My response is that there's no spec for it because it doesn't exist.....

If all amplifiers were perfect amplifiers, then they would all sound exactly alike, and there would be nothing to discuss.
If there was one perfect amplifier, and we all wanted perfect amplifiers, then every other manufacturer would be out of business in a week.
A perfect amplifier would be "a straight wire with gain" (not my definition), and so would have no tonality
(by any definition I've heard - just like really pure water has no taste).

All amplifiers are, therefore, imperfect, each with different imperfections.
The word "tonality" is just a way of putting a positive spin on that fact.

Specifications describe the imperfections in various amplifiers one way;
"tonality" is just a different way of describing them.
(Sometimes it can be difficult or impossible to directly equate the two descriptions, but sometimes not.)

Therefore, since my goal is "a straight wire with gain", in your paradigm, my goal is "an amplifier with NO tonality"...
your goals, and mileage, may vary.

Since my (and many others) goal is "zero tonality", and that more or less equates to "flat frequency response and no distortion",
while we can't accurately interpret the variations, it at least suggests that amplifiers with the flattest frequency response and
lowest distortion are likely to be the ones closest to our goal.

The ear hears harmonic distortion as tonality. So its not true that there is no spec for it.

The problem is being able to understand what the specs are telling you. This has a lot to do with the fact that most audiophiles and engineers don't understand the human hearing/perceptual rules in a way that could help them!

For example: an amplifier with vanishingly low THD is likely to sound bright. This is because to get that spec, the amp has to employ loop feedback. Loop feedback introduces time-domain distortions, which is another way of saying that at high frequencies the amp will ring. This 'ringing' is in essence odd-ordered harmonic distortion.

Now the human ear uses the 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics as cues to determine the volume or sound pressure of a sound. Since this is the case, the ear is much more sensitive to these harmonics than it is even to the human voice. In fact it may come as a surprise to many audiophiles and engineers alike; the human ear is most sensitive at bird-call frequencies.

Because of this sensitivity, even the slightest amount of odd-ordered harmonics (100ths of a percent) will be percieved as a brightness and also as additional sound pressure. This is why many systems sound loud when you turn up the volume, even though a sound pressure meter will reveal a fairly moderate volume! "It is the luxury of high end audio to have a relaxed sound at high volumes." IOW, the better systems will be relaxed at high volumes and there is no sense of sound pressure!

So we see here a coloration of transistors, one that the ear finds quite irritating.

Let's explore tubes. SETs were mentioned; many have high amounts of THD. But that is at full power, and one must look at the whole picture to understand why these amps are popular. The first is that the distortion goes down as power goes down, in fact to a point that is lower than most push-pull amps whether tube or transistor. IOW the distortion at low power is not measurable with modern equipment!

This is why SETs have good low level detail. However to reap this benefit the amp must be on a speaker of effciency that is such that the amp is not developing significant distortion. FWIW, at moderate power levels the primary distortion product is the 2nd, followed at drastically lower levels by the 3rd and 4th harmonics, with almost no higher orders. At high power levels the higher orders (including the odd orders) show up. But since music has many transients, the distortion is only on the attacks; this causes the amp to have a dynamic quality well outside of its apparent power level! You will find this description to match all SETs.

Push-pull tube amps come in two general varieties, those that employ single-ended circuits at their inputs and those that are fully balanced. The fully-balanced amp will have cancellation at each stage of gain and so will be lacking the traditional 'vacuum-tube warmth' that many transistor dudes complain of. The primary distortion product is the 3rd harmonic.

The P-P amps that combine single-ended circuits at their inputs will have a compound distortion product, composed of the 2nd and 5th harmonics. These amps will all have some of that 1950s textbook tube amp sound in varying degrees depending on execution.

So if we look at the distortion analysis of the amp we do indeed get a spec for tonality. What we don't have is a good idea of how much that tonality will affect the final outcome, but the signatures I described can be counted on in the topologies I have mentioned. Its just a matter of degree.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hmmmmm. There's no spec for tonality.....
My response is that there's no spec for it because it doesn't exist.....

If all amplifiers were perfect amplifiers, then they would all sound exactly alike, and there would be nothing to discuss.
If there was one perfect amplifier, and we all wanted perfect amplifiers, then every other manufacturer would be out of business in a week.
A perfect amplifier would be "a straight wire with gain" (not my definition), and so would have no tonality
(by any definition I've heard - just like really pure water has no taste).

All amplifiers are, therefore, imperfect, each with different imperfections.
The word "tonality" is just a way of putting a positive spin on that fact.

Specifications describe the imperfections in various amplifiers one way;
"tonality" is just a different way of describing them.
(Sometimes it can be difficult or impossible to directly equate the two descriptions, but sometimes not.)

Therefore, since my goal is "a straight wire with gain", in your paradigm, my goal is "an amplifier with NO tonality"...
your goals, and mileage, may vary.

Since my (and many others) goal is "zero tonality", and that more or less equates to "flat frequency response and no distortion",
while we can't accurately interpret the variations, it at least suggests that amplifiers with the flattest frequency response and
lowest distortion are likely to be the ones closest to our goal.

[For example, I don't know which amplifier I would consider 'the best one", but I am absolutely certain
that a SET, with 10% distortion, cannot POSSIBLY be it, because the 10% THD is a deal-breaker.]

Oh...I like this guy.


Tim

 

[NorthStar]

-- Ya, he's not bad at all (Keith). :b

...So are many more here, including Atmasphere (Ralph).