Confessions of a audio tweaker and the quest for the live illusion.

[RogerD]

I wrapped up my experiment with my ground super highway and these are some conclusions.

Every piece of audio equipment produces EMI internally.

All interconnects and cables act as antenna for EMI & RFI

System sound is degraded because of EMI & RFI noise and interference.

Without ridding the system of this low level noise you cannot realise the potential of the current sound system in place.

Benifits of having reduced EMI RFI noise pollution:

Greater clarity,focus,tonal signature,natural bloom , non-congestion,imagining,soundstage,dynamics,a more relaxed or natural sound,PRAT,and realism. I could list others,but all in all this made the biggest difference in overal sound quality,
topping all other upgrades and switching equipments I have made in my system.

There are hundreds of pages of theory and explanations of the what and why, everything we do or don't do has an effect of what we hear in our systems every day. I think I have taken a major step in understanding how to bring my system to the quest for the live illusion. You can't measure it , but my ears can.


"Noise is the enemy. Noise is the unnecessary baggage that most systems carry around like backpackers scaling a crest loaded up with stones - it kills the experience. In audiophile terms, it kills clarity, speed and dynamics." ----- Walter Fields

 

[fas42]

There are hundreds of pages of theory and explanations of the what and why, everything we do or don't do has an effect of what we hear in our systems every day. I think I have taken a major step in understanding how to bring my system to the quest for the live illusion. You can't measure it , but my ears can.

Nicely put, Roger!

Couple of other questions I was going to ask you. You're obviously a R2R "freak" , but does CD give you as good sound?

Also, how much effort or focus did you put into ensuring that the connections at the end of your cables were in good shape?

Cheers,
Frank

 

[RogerD]

Nicely put, Roger!

Couple of other questions I was going to ask you. You're obviously a R2R "freak" , but does CD give you as good sound?

Also, how much effort or focus did you put into ensuring that the connections at the end of your cables were in good shape?

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Since R2R is the ultimate analog medium in my system it is much more of a relaxed reproduction then the CD. I have minimised the digital sound by using a tube dac and voicing the coupling caps and tubes. Listening to the digital signal through my Ampex 350's was much better. I should have my 350's back in about a month to see how they sound after they have been voiced to my liking,very excited about that.

Cables? I use NBS and their connections are top notch,as good as most other high end cables. The connections on my earthing wires were crimped with a commercial grade tool.

 

[mep]

Roger-Tonight I hooked a ground wire from preamp (using the ground lug on the preamp) to the screw that holds the wall plate to the recepticles that my preamp is plugged into. I ran a ground wire from each of my Ampex 350s to the preamp case. That's as far as I have gotten so far. At least I have a start.

Mark

 

[RogerD]

Roger-Tonight I hooked a ground wire from preamp (using the ground lug on the preamp) to the screw that holds the wall plate to the recepticles that my preamp is plugged into. I ran a ground wire from each of my Ampex 350s to the preamp case. That's as far as I have gotten so far. At least I have a start.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Keep us posted, if there is any improvement.

You might find this interesting. Yesterday I added 2 10ga wires to my Ampex 440 and after several hours the increased clarity was very apparent. When I had my 350's in the system and had them in my earth circuit the clarity was rock solid. In my Ampex 440 I use the Rick Chinn RTZ cards and my brother has always preferred the original Ampex cards. Last night was the first time he thought the RTZ's might be better.

The earth circuit seems to effect the cabling in place. My NBS had to settle in,but the clarity should improve straight away and get better from there.

Good luck!

 

[silviajulieta]

If you use this method - that should not be used for safety reasons, you should disconnet everything from the mains when removing or insering signal cables. Or, at less tie one hand at you back when you change the cables. If by chance one of the devices insulation is faulty you risk a very dangerous situation - one hand at a live potential and the other at ground.

Also, most inputs are connected almost directly to semiconductor devices - as RCA cables connect live before ground if the grounds floating you can damage them. Sometimes they survive, but become noisy.

Some manufacturers insert a 47 ohm resistor between the plug (or socket) ground pin and the device chassis - high enough to reduce the ground loops current and still safe. Sometimes they bypass it with a small capacitor.

Dear friends: Yes, there is a " potential " risk that in the last 8-10 years never " comes alive " in my system. I'm not the only one that use this method, there are a lot of people ( over the world. ) making the same and I never readed a compliant/failure about.

Anyway, this system grounding is a very important subject in the system " fine tunning " task.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[mep]

Roger-So far what I have done is a success. There was a slight hum before coming from the Ampex 350s that I was sure was a grounding issue. It's gone now and I'm very happy.

Mark

 

[RogerD]

Roger-So far what I have done is a success. There was a slight hum before coming from the Ampex 350s that I was sure was a grounding issue. It's gone now and I'm very happy.

Mark

Glad to hear Mark.

 

[fas42]

Roger, you've got me intrigued with your Agtron power amp, there is nothing I can find on the net about it, apart from the fact the company now makes coffee roasting related devices!! From what you say it's a very high power unit: could you share some of the detailed spec's and other details about it possibly ...?

Thanks,
Frank

 

[RogerD]

Roger, you've got me intrigued with your Agtron power amp, there is nothing I can find on the net about it, apart from the fact the company now makes coffee roasting related devices!! From what you say it's a very high power unit: could you share some of the detailed spec's and other details about it possibly ...?

Thanks,
Frank

Agtron's designer/owner/engineer is Carl Staub,a long time friend of mine. Carl is a audiophile and in my opinion one of the top audio engineers in the country.

Carl has manufactured speakers,subwoofers,preamps,and amplifiers under the ParAcas brand and since about 1990 the Platinum brand. He was a exhibitor at the CES in Las Vegas from 1992 to about 1997.

I have a pair of his mono block amps. They are class A up to about 120 watts and AB to about 1800 watts. The amps have 2 toriodal transformers each and are voiced with Aerovox capacitors that were custom made to Carl's specs.

Carl still has a audio room at his plant,but has moved on and revolutionised the coffee roasting business with his Agtron technology. He has about every fortune 500 company involved with baking and food preparation. Among his customers are Starbucks,Mcdonalds,and Nabisco to name a few.

I am fortunate to own some of his equipment and speakers.

 

[fas42]

Thanks for that, Roger, your friend is certainly a smart chap! Though I am a bit surprised by your quoting of 120 watts, class A: from the level of heat sinking I can see in the photo this does not quite make sense, even with the fan, unless he is using some especially clever tricks. That 1800 watts class AB, is that into 2 or 1 ohms -- it can't be for a higher impedance like 8 or 4 ohms, I would have thought?

I do note what appears to be some shielded filtering or conditioning of the mains into the transformers; if this is what it is, he's cottoned on to the value of extra care in this area quite some time ago ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Thanks for that, Roger, your friend is certainly a smart chap! Though I am a bit surprised by your quoting of 120 watts, class A: from the level of heat sinking I can see in the photo this does not quite make sense, even with the fan, unless he is using some especially clever tricks. That 1800 watts class AB, is that into 2 or 1 ohms -- it can't be for a higher impedance like 8 or 4 ohms, I would have thought?

I do note what appears to be some shielded filtering or conditioning of the mains into the transformers; if this is what it is, he's cottoned on to the value of extra care in this area quite some time ago ...

Frank

Frank,

The values I quoted are from memory,I could be off. The amps have a 25 amp breaker,so if I do the math, amps x volts = watts,well you get the idea.

I believe the device that covers the other tranformer is the "soft start" iirc. The amp does have a switchable fan,but I have mine on the off position.

 

[RogerD]

I am using NBS Master IV speaker cables and I am going to do a experiment to reduce EMI / RFI. Since my NBS have always performed as intended,if the results are wholly positive I will report back in a couple weeks.

 

[Lee]

Roger,

Thank you for this excellent thread. It really matches my experience as well. Recently I upgraded some of my power cords to Shunyata Venoms and Gutwires. It had a noticeable impact on sound quality.

 

[RogerD]

Roger,

Thank you for this excellent thread. It really matches my experience as well. Recently I upgraded some of my power cords to Shunyata Venoms and Gutwires. It had a noticeable impact on sound quality.

Lee your welcome. The more I dig for info the more I am finding out with actual experience that EMI & RFI reduction has a dramatic effect on the overall quality of sound.

At some point I'll hit a wall,but it hasn't happened yet.

There are many simple and inexpensive technologies that fully address these issues.

The next step for me is making my own speaker cables....to be continued.

 

[fas42]

The more I dig for info the more I am finding out with actual experience that EMI & RFI reduction has a dramatic effect on the overall quality of sound.

At some point I'll hit a wall,but it hasn't happened yet.

There are many simple and inexpensive technologies that fully address these issues.

The next step for me is making my own speaker cables....to be continued.

I say "hear, hear" to all those points, Roger! As regards hitting a wall, all my fiddling has shown me that the wall is a long, long way away, I have yet to get anywhere near it. For example, you mentioned that CD wasn't up to the standard of R2R for you so far, that's a barrier you can get through. When the acoustic of every recording completely takes over your home, makes you feel that space that you live in is completely subservient to the environment of the recording then you're well on your way ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

I say "hear, hear" to all those points, Roger! As regards hitting a wall, all my fiddling has shown me that the wall is a long, long way away, I have yet to get anywhere near it. For example, you mentioned that CD wasn't up to the standard of R2R for you so far, that's a barrier you can get through. When the acoustic of every recording completely takes over your home, makes you feel that space that you live in is completely subservient to the environment of the recording then you're well on your way ...

Frank

Frank,

The other night I played the Neil Young live at Massey Hall dvd sampled at 48,now that was pretty spectacular!

 

[mep]

I say "hear, hear" to all those points, Roger! As regards hitting a wall, all my fiddling has shown me that the wall is a long, long way away, I have yet to get anywhere near it. For example, you mentioned that CD wasn't up to the standard of R2R for you so far, that's a barrier you can get through. When the acoustic of every recording completely takes over your home, makes you feel that space that you live in is completely subservient to the environment of the recording then you're well on your way ...

Frank

Frank-Red Book CD is never going to be up to the standard of R2R tapes made from the master. And a Phillips Home Theater in a Box system that cost around $500 is never going to take you to nirvana and I don't care how much you fuss with it. There can't be more than $10 worth of parts in both speakers (the mains) and if this system could really play at 105dB levels, the distortion would have to be over 30% and that is being generous.

 

[fas42]

Frank-Red Book CD is never going to be up to the standard of R2R tapes made from the master.

In terms of the acoustic experience I believe that there won't be a problem. The big advantage that R2R natively has, and that digital has a hard time overcoming, is that interference from high speed, digital circuitry is not part of the mix in a tape machine. In other words, digital not done right pollutes its own nest. Where CD done right has a big advantage over R2R is the dynamic range: the very best tape machines could only hit about 75dB S/N, digital can go to 96dB and beyond. Yes, digital has a terrible time sounding dynamic, but that is a distortion problem, that can be fixed.

There can't be more than $10 worth of parts in both speakers (the mains) and if this system could really play at 105dB levels, the distortion would have to be over 30% and that is being generous.

Yes, I am sure at a volume peak of 105dB -- the average volume would be of the order of 95dB -- there would be a very short term distortion peak of that level but the ear glides right over that if the rest of the time the system is working well. As a comparison, a test CD is a freebie from our national broadcasting group of classical pieces, the last track is the last movement of a locally recorded Beethoven's 9th. I have looked at the waveform of this, and lo and behold, the engineers have run it through the ADC a little too "hot": there is blatant clipping at about 4 or 5 places, at a crescendo, a split second or so but definitely there. But even when played back at nicely low volumes I can't pick it happening: it passes so quickly that the ear doesn't register a problem ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Frank,

The other night I played the Neil Young live at Massey Hall dvd sampled at 48,now that was pretty spectacular!

My story along these lines when I was first getting good sound (25 years ago!!) is Hot August Night: the very first track with the slow, almost inaudible intially, buildup from the string section, then powerful drums and the rest of the band kicked in up to the point of Neil Diamond starting vocals: it blew me away, an overwhelming experience hearing this done right on a system for the first time!

Frank