Confessions of a audio tweaker and the quest for the live illusion.
- Thread starter RogerD
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Although I know of some grounding tweaks that can improve sound - I have used them when working with high sensitivity, low noise instruments in the laboratory - I do not use them in my audio system as they are not in accordance with electrical regulations, much more strict in Europe than in the USA. IMHO, electrical safety is much more important than the last bit of performance.
No one without proper certification should do any modifications in electrical power distribution systems or grounding. If you do it, you become liable for any consequences. Also , insurance companies experts always look for these details in case of fire.
thanks, microstrip...i just emailed you about my transport question on the other post. on this post, i will not even change a fuse on my components without a professional...in my case, probably a safe thing to do. Nevertheless, thanks for the added safety advice!
For those that are sqeemish about grounding,this is always a option. It will give you exactly what I have experienced using my 4 rolls of wire and 2 boxes of spade comnnectors. Of course there is a severe price premium.
"At initial turn on, I realized that the Tripoint was quite audible. The sound stage was encompassing and the noise levels had gone down substantially. But after a good deal of settle-in time with the Tripoint, it was on Sinatra at the Sands Reprise, a live recording with the big Count Basie orchestra with much audience noise, that I first realized the magnitude of the improvement it gave. While I have had substantial improvements over time in reproducing a facsimile of being there with this recording, it still did not have the placement of Frank, the orchestra, and the audience that was plausible. And when the orchestra raged, all plausibility was lost. The musicians were just back there on the stage. Some of the quieter songs with only Frank and a single piano (Basie) were better. My vinyl copy was much better but still failed to have a satisfying realism.
I chose the disc off my music server (Exemplar through the Exemplar/Xindak DAC 5) and was totally taken aback. I was there, and at a choice table in Vegas! I listened through the entire disc, with the exception of several talks by Frank. Symphonic works show some of this space and realism, but you get a sense in studio records of more limited space in the recording venue. Even some live recordings, such as Clark Terry’s Clark Terry Live at the Village Gate, Chesky, suggest a much smaller area, especially for the band. The point is that the TriPoint has a major benefit in the realism of the sound stage. "
http://www.tripointaudio.us/REVIEWS.htm
"At initial turn on, I realized that the Tripoint was quite audible. The sound stage was encompassing and the noise levels had gone down substantially. But after a good deal of settle-in time with the Tripoint, it was on Sinatra at the Sands Reprise, a live recording with the big Count Basie orchestra with much audience noise, that I first realized the magnitude of the improvement it gave. While I have had substantial improvements over time in reproducing a facsimile of being there with this recording, it still did not have the placement of Frank, the orchestra, and the audience that was plausible. And when the orchestra raged, all plausibility was lost. The musicians were just back there on the stage. Some of the quieter songs with only Frank and a single piano (Basie) were better. My vinyl copy was much better but still failed to have a satisfying realism.
I chose the disc off my music server (Exemplar through the Exemplar/Xindak DAC 5) and was totally taken aback. I was there, and at a choice table in Vegas! I listened through the entire disc, with the exception of several talks by Frank. Symphonic works show some of this space and realism, but you get a sense in studio records of more limited space in the recording venue. Even some live recordings, such as Clark Terry’s Clark Terry Live at the Village Gate, Chesky, suggest a much smaller area, especially for the band. The point is that the TriPoint has a major benefit in the realism of the sound stage. "
http://www.tripointaudio.us/REVIEWS.htm
I decided to do some simple research and since I have actual knowledge of these products and found these to be a benifit in my system,you might find this helpful.
My whole premise is that RFI,EMI and low level noise prevents your system from operating at the highest level it is capable of. There is a way to cleanse the system of this "hash" and increase the level of your system efficiency.
That is through proper grounding.
Kevin Hayes can perform a upgrade on my VAC 70/70 and 140's and he mentions on his website what this entails.
"Revision of passive parts, new power supply noise control techniques, high frequency bandwidth extended, revised chassis grounding, increased current capability in the output tube pathway,."
And Walter Fields of NBS cables clearly states what his main theory is about designing his cables.
"Nothing but signal
NBS Audio Cables was founded on the simple philosophy that cables should deliver the full resolution of a system.
Noise, in a cable, can and will affect the audio frequency range and interfere with an audio signal. The most common noise, Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), affects a cable directly in the audio range. RFI presents itself as hiss, commercial radio broadcasts, intercom broadcasts, or any other radio signal broadcast in the audible range.
Another source of noise is Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Whenever electricity, i.e., an audio signal, passes through a wire, it produces inductance that creates an electromagnetic field. Because EMI manifests itself at a high frequency, it is commonly believed not to interfere with the audible range of frequencies. However, all frequencies demonstrate harmonic structures. Even if the cause of EMI is outside the audible range, the upper and lower harmonics of a given frequency often present themselves within the audible range. At the very least, EMI causes degradation of audio frequencies.
Patented technologies create the NBS sound
Every NBS cable employs the circuitry of a Passive Frequency Inductance Network (PFIN) combined with hand-made construction and unconventional use of silver shielding. The higher the line of NBS cable, the more sophisticated the PFIN circuitry becomes. Unique wire-weave patterns and the use of the finest materials available contribute further to the world-renowned NBS Sound.
The RCA connectors employed on our higher lines are the exclusive design of Walter Fields. These connectors are manufactured of gold-plated beryllium copper for greater conductance and a specially plated chromium barrel to reject RFI and EMI. The combined result puts the NBS philosophy into practice by achieving a dramatically lowered noise floor, maximal dynamic range, and the ultimate in information retrieval. "
Now I'm not trying to peddle either product because both Kevin and Walter after so many years in business,have not reinvented the wheel. The Hifi world is just too competitive.
Just maybe if we understood what actually enables componets to sound better and implemented that "core" principle. The industry could become more efficent,just by a more informed public. With efficiency comes better product at a more reasonable cost. Atleast that should be how it works,but it has to start with the buyer.
My whole premise is that RFI,EMI and low level noise prevents your system from operating at the highest level it is capable of. There is a way to cleanse the system of this "hash" and increase the level of your system efficiency.
That is through proper grounding.
Kevin Hayes can perform a upgrade on my VAC 70/70 and 140's and he mentions on his website what this entails.
"Revision of passive parts, new power supply noise control techniques, high frequency bandwidth extended, revised chassis grounding, increased current capability in the output tube pathway,."
And Walter Fields of NBS cables clearly states what his main theory is about designing his cables.
"Nothing but signal
NBS Audio Cables was founded on the simple philosophy that cables should deliver the full resolution of a system.
Noise, in a cable, can and will affect the audio frequency range and interfere with an audio signal. The most common noise, Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), affects a cable directly in the audio range. RFI presents itself as hiss, commercial radio broadcasts, intercom broadcasts, or any other radio signal broadcast in the audible range.
Another source of noise is Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Whenever electricity, i.e., an audio signal, passes through a wire, it produces inductance that creates an electromagnetic field. Because EMI manifests itself at a high frequency, it is commonly believed not to interfere with the audible range of frequencies. However, all frequencies demonstrate harmonic structures. Even if the cause of EMI is outside the audible range, the upper and lower harmonics of a given frequency often present themselves within the audible range. At the very least, EMI causes degradation of audio frequencies.
Patented technologies create the NBS sound
Every NBS cable employs the circuitry of a Passive Frequency Inductance Network (PFIN) combined with hand-made construction and unconventional use of silver shielding. The higher the line of NBS cable, the more sophisticated the PFIN circuitry becomes. Unique wire-weave patterns and the use of the finest materials available contribute further to the world-renowned NBS Sound.
The RCA connectors employed on our higher lines are the exclusive design of Walter Fields. These connectors are manufactured of gold-plated beryllium copper for greater conductance and a specially plated chromium barrel to reject RFI and EMI. The combined result puts the NBS philosophy into practice by achieving a dramatically lowered noise floor, maximal dynamic range, and the ultimate in information retrieval. "
Now I'm not trying to peddle either product because both Kevin and Walter after so many years in business,have not reinvented the wheel. The Hifi world is just too competitive.
Just maybe if we understood what actually enables componets to sound better and implemented that "core" principle. The industry could become more efficent,just by a more informed public. With efficiency comes better product at a more reasonable cost. Atleast that should be how it works,but it has to start with the buyer.
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Dear RogerD: Yes, lowering any kind of distortions ( noise, colorations, RFI, EMI, etc, etc ) permit that the quality performance in any home audio system be near to the recording.
One of those " distortions " is non-matched electrical impedance between audio components all over the system audio chain.
Typical exist this non-matched impedance between speakers and amplifiers and very especially with tubes amplifiers. IMHO any amplifier MUST match the speaker electrical curve impedance/phase at any playback moment and under any playback circumstances.
For an amplifier could achieve that " MUST target " its output impedance has to be lower than 0.1 Ohm and in this way it does not matters which is the speaker electrical impedance curve this will be matched and the amplifier response will be always flat.
When an amplifier has higher output impedance then it can't match the speaker impedance curve and what we heard/hear is a equalized sound from the speakers because the amplifier instead to respond flat what it made/make is to follow that speaker impedance curve with its deeps and crests, an amplifier/speaker relationship have to " respect " the Ohms Law in this subject otherwise we only have an additional equalization of what the audio system reproduce.
In other system audio links where the Ohm's Law was/were not achieved other similar " things " happen, for example: when the output impedance of a preamp is higher than say 50 ohms we can lose the signal integrity on high frequencies ( between other things. ).
I know only a few music lovers that take care on this critical system impedance matching subject that if we take care IMHO makes a huge difference in quality performance level on what the same system is performing ( maybe greater differences than the ground one that's so important. ).
Btw, I solved the ground issue in my system several years ago: I build ( well a technician ) a system dedicated earht true ground where only my Phonolinepreamp made direct connection to it and all the other audio items in the system ( that are connected and grounded through the Phonolinepreamp. through the IC input/output cables. ) are " floating " including the Phonolinepreamp external power supply and yes I use ferrita stoppers over the audio system. Yes, agree with you the system noise floor improved and disappear " problems " that many times we don't even knew we had it.
Anyway, IMHO try to improve at any single link ( in the system audio chain. ) the impedance matching is as I said a MUST to have if we really want to talk of High Quality Performance System Level.
IMHO we can't talk that our system is a great one with out electrical system impedance matching and obviously if we have not that impedance match then we are farest ( away ) from the recording and farest from the music with an equalized ( heavy one. ) sound instead nearest to the recording and nearest to the MUSIC.
If any one want to do it or is interestd about then IMHO a good point/stage to begin with can be: first step could be check the amplifier manufacturer output impedance figure a second step could be measure the real amplifier output impedance in both channels and a thid step could be ask the speaker manufacturer the true speaker electrical impedance curve. In this way you could see by your self how good is matched your speaker/amp combination and from here follow to other audio links.
A great audio system quality performance level IMHO only could be really great not at random but on porpose.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
One of those " distortions " is non-matched electrical impedance between audio components all over the system audio chain.
Typical exist this non-matched impedance between speakers and amplifiers and very especially with tubes amplifiers. IMHO any amplifier MUST match the speaker electrical curve impedance/phase at any playback moment and under any playback circumstances.
For an amplifier could achieve that " MUST target " its output impedance has to be lower than 0.1 Ohm and in this way it does not matters which is the speaker electrical impedance curve this will be matched and the amplifier response will be always flat.
When an amplifier has higher output impedance then it can't match the speaker impedance curve and what we heard/hear is a equalized sound from the speakers because the amplifier instead to respond flat what it made/make is to follow that speaker impedance curve with its deeps and crests, an amplifier/speaker relationship have to " respect " the Ohms Law in this subject otherwise we only have an additional equalization of what the audio system reproduce.
In other system audio links where the Ohm's Law was/were not achieved other similar " things " happen, for example: when the output impedance of a preamp is higher than say 50 ohms we can lose the signal integrity on high frequencies ( between other things. ).
I know only a few music lovers that take care on this critical system impedance matching subject that if we take care IMHO makes a huge difference in quality performance level on what the same system is performing ( maybe greater differences than the ground one that's so important. ).
Btw, I solved the ground issue in my system several years ago: I build ( well a technician ) a system dedicated earht true ground where only my Phonolinepreamp made direct connection to it and all the other audio items in the system ( that are connected and grounded through the Phonolinepreamp. through the IC input/output cables. ) are " floating " including the Phonolinepreamp external power supply and yes I use ferrita stoppers over the audio system. Yes, agree with you the system noise floor improved and disappear " problems " that many times we don't even knew we had it.
Anyway, IMHO try to improve at any single link ( in the system audio chain. ) the impedance matching is as I said a MUST to have if we really want to talk of High Quality Performance System Level.
IMHO we can't talk that our system is a great one with out electrical system impedance matching and obviously if we have not that impedance match then we are farest ( away ) from the recording and farest from the music with an equalized ( heavy one. ) sound instead nearest to the recording and nearest to the MUSIC.
If any one want to do it or is interestd about then IMHO a good point/stage to begin with can be: first step could be check the amplifier manufacturer output impedance figure a second step could be measure the real amplifier output impedance in both channels and a thid step could be ask the speaker manufacturer the true speaker electrical impedance curve. In this way you could see by your self how good is matched your speaker/amp combination and from here follow to other audio links.
A great audio system quality performance level IMHO only could be really great not at random but on porpose.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
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Raul,
Thanks for bringing up the impedence matching there has been much written on the subject. Another part of the puzzle and a very important one at that. Your floating ground is another way to skin the cat. I think we all can learn as we explore system grounding,methods and theory.
Thanks for bringing up the impedence matching there has been much written on the subject. Another part of the puzzle and a very important one at that. Your floating ground is another way to skin the cat. I think we all can learn as we explore system grounding,methods and theory.
Dear Roger: As you know there are several audio areas/stages where we can improve the audio system quality performance but IMHO with out fix the ground and electrical impedance match it is really dificult if not impossible to fix the other system issues.
IMHO we not only need a good knowledge level ( by our self or through an advisor. ) but patience a lot of patience with an attitude focused on excellence level at what this means.
Anyway, your experiences are worth to know it and could be a good point to start about. I hope other members could share theirs own experiences that can enrich the knowledge level on different ways to improve the system quality performance level.
Now, the important thing on the whole subject is IMHO not only readed in this thread or other forums but take ACTION about and try it at home when need it.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Raul-You made some very interesting points here that are worth discussing in more detail. I wish someone would sketch out a reasonable method for grounding all of the gear in your system. Roger's method is way different than your method. Your method is more like Mike Elliott's reccomendation where only the preamp is tied to ground and all other componenets are left floating from earth ground and only tied to the preamp ground via the outer-shells of the RCA connectors.
Hi Mark,
I would be interested too! Although I have had extremely good results with the method I have used.
Just a update I switched my preamp ground wire to 10 ga from 12 ga and as I expected it has had a effect on the sound,more focus,clarity and natural bloom. The system as of last night was about 30 hours logged since the change and it was still morphing,nothing dramatic,but improving none the less.
This earth ground circuit acts like the best cable upgrade or making a change at the preamp or amplifier,though I can't recall such a magnitude of difference. I played the Keith Jarrett ECM Standards live CD last night and the natural bloom was the best I have experienced for that recording.
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If you use this method - that should not be used for safety reasons, you should disconnet everything from the mains when removing or insering signal cables. Or, at less tie one hand at you back when you change the cables. If by chance one of the devices insulation is faulty you risk a very dangerous situation - one hand at a live potential and the other at ground.
Also, most inputs are connected almost directly to semiconductor devices - as RCA cables connect live before ground if the grounds floating you can damage them. Sometimes they survive, but become noisy.
Some manufacturers insert a 47 ohm resistor between the plug (or socket) ground pin and the device chassis - high enough to reduce the ground loops current and still safe. Sometimes they bypass it with a small capacitor.
Roger-I assume that your preamp has a 3 prong connector and you are not using a cheater plug on it. In addition to that, you took a piece of 10ga wire and crimped on spade lugs to both ends, attached one end to a screw on your preamp case and the other end attaches to the center screw that holds the wall plate to the electrical outlets?
Mark you are absolutely right. The Accuphase C200 originally comes with a proprietary 2 prong connection. This was switched to a IEC 3 prong by the factory distributor in Los Angeles. I use a NBS statement PC on the C200 which in itself does have a similar effect on the sound. The ground circuit takes it to a whole different level.
Now I turn every thing off when I changed the main preamp wire,of course I had to because the PC had to be pulled to access the outlet center screw. I have numerous times added or changed wires with only turning down the volume with no ill effects or surprises.
I did have my monoblocks off when I added the 10ga wires connecting them to the preamp.
The preamp ground wire goes on the outlet that the preamp plugs into.
For other's outside the U.S. this should not be done.
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A key thing to always keep in mind is the safety aspect. Unless you really know what you're doing and you're trying something to see if some factor is relevant to getting better sound quality you should never defeat the grounding protection schemes of equipment. A very good overall discussion of this is at http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm, and in fact all the stuff at this chap's website is well worth looking over ...
The star grounding and floating schemes to me in essence are the same thing electrically, the floating arrangement is -- a potentially dangerous! -- version of star grounding.
My own experiments with grounding take me back and forward in terms of how it's setup. In other words, I believe there is no "correct" solution, merely the right one for your system at that particular moment. I have grounded the casing of double insulated components, those using two prongs only, and found inserting a resistor in that ground connection improved the performance. And the value of the resistor that gave the best result would depend on what other modifications were done! Again, there are no hard and fast rules, at least none that I have so far found or confirmed.
One trick that's useful for seeing where experiments could be useful: let the system stabilise for some period of time, put your ear near the speaker (sorry!
) with volume up, no source playing so nominally silent, and connect or disconnect, as relevant, an earthing lead. If you hear a little sharp transient noise, a glitch, at that moment then you can be sure that grounding is relevant to sound quality and you will need to play around with such things to get better sound ...
Frank
The star grounding and floating schemes to me in essence are the same thing electrically, the floating arrangement is -- a potentially dangerous! -- version of star grounding.
My own experiments with grounding take me back and forward in terms of how it's setup. In other words, I believe there is no "correct" solution, merely the right one for your system at that particular moment. I have grounded the casing of double insulated components, those using two prongs only, and found inserting a resistor in that ground connection improved the performance. And the value of the resistor that gave the best result would depend on what other modifications were done! Again, there are no hard and fast rules, at least none that I have so far found or confirmed.
One trick that's useful for seeing where experiments could be useful: let the system stabilise for some period of time, put your ear near the speaker (sorry!
) with volume up, no source playing so nominally silent, and connect or disconnect, as relevant, an earthing lead. If you hear a little sharp transient noise, a glitch, at that moment then you can be sure that grounding is relevant to sound quality and you will need to play around with such things to get better sound ...Frank
I had a phone conversation with a friend last night and told him what I did and so far the effect I have been experiencing with my system. He said I should get a Gauss meter and take a reading of the magnetic fields around my equipment. Now this is something I have no real knowledge about.
I'm doing a little research on Gauss and found this video.
There has to be a scientific explanation for the improvements of both the earthing and what others have heard ie the Tripoint Troy.
I'm doing a little research on Gauss and found this video.
There has to be a scientific explanation for the improvements of both the earthing and what others have heard ie the Tripoint Troy.
I agree, this site is a good starting point for doing research in all sort of things electrical.
I have to say that I don't feel that magnetic fields in the conventional sense are relevant. Of course, when you start narrowing down to get finer and finer levels of performance their impact in audible terms may become more important.
I feel this business of earthing at least to some degree is about the discharge of buildup of static. You typically see a lot of non-audio electrical gear attract dust to their outside like a magnet, this is an electrostatic behaviour, and the grounding neutralises the static, if all goes well ...
Since it's been mentioned in another thread, how sensitive is your gear to mains interference, how much effort have you made in tackling issues like that?
Frank
Be careful - you are mixing two different things - Gauss's flux theorem (The electric flux through any closed surface is proportional to the enclosed electric charge) and Gaussmeter - a device for measuring the polarity and strength of a magnetic field.
Unless you want to take a semester course on electromagnetism, it is not easy to understand the basics of complex grounding systems such as an audio system.
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