DAC comparison and recommendation request

[vermaxis]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I've been on a DAC journey and thought I would share some impressions of all the DACs I've had in my house. After learning more about what I'm looking for, I'd love some recommendations on what to try next.

Current setup: Innuos Zen Mini MK3 + LPSU -> Classe Delta PRE -> Pathos Kratos (as a power amplifier) -> Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Grand Reference

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc.

Here are brief impressions of what I've owned/tried in my setup:

okto DAC8 Stereo: 'wall of sound' and very in-your-face without soundstage nuance, seemed accurate and detailed with huge bottom end but was harsh/unforgiving on top

Classe Delta PRE: very non-fatiguing and easily listenable with plenty of warm bass presence, would love something with bigger soundstage and some more detail

Chord DAVE: interesting handling of bass textures that I've never heard before or since, overall was detailed but dry and not easy to listen to

Mola Mola Tambaqui: big soundstage expansion and overall sounded nice with fast transients but was left fatigued after my sessions (I think I might be sensitive to upsampling for some reason)

Holo May KTE: nice overall balanced sound and really huge soundstage, unfortunately several recordings were spiky and sibilant compared to the Classe and others so this was a no go

T+A DAC 200: the closest I've been to a satisfied upgrade to the Classe, more detailed for sure with certain effects and vocals really standing out in a good way, unfortunately left me slightly fatigued though

Meitner MA3: this is the smoothest DAC I've heard and it was overall very pleasing and non-fatiguing, unfortunately I felt the best sound came from network vs. USB and mConnect was an absolute nightmare

dCS Rossini APEX: what a huge love/hate disappointment for me, loved the big soundstage, extra details, quick response and decay, hated the thin/lean sound lacking bass and left me super fatigued (upsampling?)

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Thanks in advance

**EDIT**: Tons of great help here! Here are the recommendations I've received so far:

Most recommended:
Lampizat0r Pacific (7x)
Aries Cerat Helene (4x)
Aries Cerat Kassandra II Reference (3x)
MSB Premier (3x)
Playback Designs MPD-8 (2x)
Cardas Reflection / Golden Cross (2x)

Recommended:
Abbas (model not specified)
Accuphase DC-37
APL DSD-MR MK2
Aqua Acoustic Formula xHD
Ayon S5
Ayon Kronos Signature
EMM Labs DA2 / DV2
Esoteric (model not specified)
Lessloss Echo's End Reference
Lumin X1
Metronome | c|AQWO
Nagra (model not specified)
Ideon Audio EOS
SMSL D3
TotalDac (model not specified)
Vermeer Model Two
Weiss DAC 501

Others:
USB 'decrapifiers' (e.g. Innous Phoenix)
Get different speakers
Transparent Audio G5 Opus and XL power cords
Sablon Audio AES/EBU
Use EQ
Cerious Technolgies Lumniscate cables
Sonore Signature Rendu

 

[Juiced]

Weiss DAC 501 / 502

New Weiss DAC 501 / 502

From Weiss's website: The DAC501 / DAC502 are our new state of the art D/A Converters with an unprecedented level of sophistication and versatily. The DAC502 uses a larger frame but else sports the same features as the DAC501. Except for an an additional 4 pin headphone socket at the back of...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[christoph]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I've been on a DAC journey and thought I would share some impressions of all the DACs I've had in my house. After learning more about what I'm looking for, I'd love some recommendations on what to try next.

Current setup: Innuos Zen Mini MK3 + LPSU -> Classe Delta PRE -> Pathos Kratos (as a power amplifier) -> Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Grand Reference

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc.

Here are brief impressions of what I've owned/tried in my setup:

okto DAC8 Stereo: 'wall of sound' and very in-your-face without soundstage nuance, seemed accurate and detailed with huge bottom end but was harsh/unforgiving on top

Classe Delta PRE: very non-fatiguing and easily listenable with plenty of warm bass presence, would love something with bigger soundstage and some more detail

Chord DAVE: interesting handling of bass textures that I've never heard before or since, overall was detailed but dry and not easy to listen to

Mola Mola Tambaqui: big soundstage expansion and overall sounded nice with fast transients but was left fatigued after my sessions (I think I might be sensitive to upsampling for some reason)

Holo May KTE: nice overall balanced sound and really huge soundstage, unfortunately several recordings were spiky and sibilant compared to the Classe and others so this was a no go

T+A DAC 200: the closest I've been to a satisfied upgrade to the Classe, more detailed for sure with certain effects and vocals really standing out in a good way, unfortunately left me slightly fatigued though

Meitner MA3: this is the smoothest DAC I've heard and it was overall very pleasing and non-fatiguing, unfortunately I felt the best sound came from network vs. USB and mConnect was an absolute nightmare

dCS Rossini APEX: what a huge love/hate disappointment for me, loved the big soundstage, extra details, quick response and decay, hated the thin/lean sound lacking bass and left me super fatigued (upsampling?)

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Thanks in advance

I would give the Lampi Pacific 2 a listen if I were in your shoes.

 

[msimanyi]

You don't mention where you're located, but I'll second Christoph's suggestion and add that you might want to audition MSB's Premier DAC as well. Both companies - depending on your location - likely have customer-friendly upgrade programs. At a recent audio show I noticed a number of systems using MSB products and I was quite impressed by their performance vs capable vinyl hardware.

 

[vermaxis]

Thanks everyone so far. I'm located in the Denver area.

@Juiced the Weiss worried me due to a Sabre chipset. I know that it's all about implementation but I was concerned that it would sound aggressive on top, glad to see your recommendation though knowing what I'm looking for

@christoph I'm super curious about the Pacific but getting concrete info from the website seems a bit hit or miss, do you know if there's any way to audition?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks everyone so far. I'm located in the Denver area.

@christoph I'm super curious about the Pacific but getting concrete info from the website seems a bit hit or miss, do you know if there's any way to audition?

I realize this would get you only part of the way to the audition you want, but you are welcome to audition a Baltic 4 at my place. I think the Lampizator aficionados here would say that if you like the Baltic 4 then you would like a Pacific or a Horizon even more.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Metronome - c|AQWO, DSD Converter converters on the high-end market

Metronome - c|AQWO, DSD Converter converters on the high-end market, c|AQWO. Ideally coupled with t|AQWO. Audio Exclusive - Austria

www.audio-exclusive.at

addictive if i had the money i would buy it right away.

 

[msimanyi]

I realize this would get you only part of the way to the audition you want, but you are welcome to audition a Baltic 4 at my place. I think the Lampizator aficionados here would say that if you like the Baltic 4 then you would like a Pacific or a Horizon even more.

@vermaxis You should do this!

 

[Ian B]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I've been on a DAC journey and thought I would share some impressions of all the DACs I've had in my house. After learning more about what I'm looking for, I'd love some recommendations on what to try next.

Current setup: Innuos Zen Mini MK3 + LPSU -> Classe Delta PRE -> Pathos Kratos (as a power amplifier) -> Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Grand Reference

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc.

Here are brief impressions of what I've owned/tried in my setup:

okto DAC8 Stereo: 'wall of sound' and very in-your-face without soundstage nuance, seemed accurate and detailed with huge bottom end but was harsh/unforgiving on top

Classe Delta PRE: very non-fatiguing and easily listenable with plenty of warm bass presence, would love something with bigger soundstage and some more detail

Chord DAVE: interesting handling of bass textures that I've never heard before or since, overall was detailed but dry and not easy to listen to

Mola Mola Tambaqui: big soundstage expansion and overall sounded nice with fast transients but was left fatigued after my sessions (I think I might be sensitive to upsampling for some reason)

Holo May KTE: nice overall balanced sound and really huge soundstage, unfortunately several recordings were spiky and sibilant compared to the Classe and others so this was a no go

T+A DAC 200: the closest I've been to a satisfied upgrade to the Classe, more detailed for sure with certain effects and vocals really standing out in a good way, unfortunately left me slightly fatigued though

Meitner MA3: this is the smoothest DAC I've heard and it was overall very pleasing and non-fatiguing, unfortunately I felt the best sound came from network vs. USB and mConnect was an absolute nightmare

dCS Rossini APEX: what a huge love/hate disappointment for me, loved the big soundstage, extra details, quick response and decay, hated the thin/lean sound lacking bass and left me super fatigued (upsampling?)

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Thanks in advance

The most cost effective thing is to get used to mConnect! It sounds better than Roon, and at least for my own listening habits is not difficult to work with at all. The interface is a little different, yeah. If you like the MA3, it's not a huge drawback.

My thoughts are that the least fatiguing DACs are DSD-based (1-bit), and/or tube. R2R stuff like MSB has a warm, analog-like tone without brightness, but doesn't flow as smoothly. DSD DACs are the smoothest, and tube DACs are the most holographic and can also be smooth.

Also, getting away from USB (if you can) generally helps with fatigue IMO. Also various USB decrapifiers like Innuos Phoenix or various iFi products help.

For your indicated preference: the EMM Labs DA2 or DV2, Playback Designs MPD-8 (very similar design), or one of the Lampi or Nagra DACs (Like an overbuilt mid-level Playback Designs DAC with SOTA electronics and tubes).

 

[AudioLibertarian]

1. Playback Designs MPD 8. 2. SMSL D3 - based on NOS Burr Brown 1704 chips, very analogue sounding, needs best USB cable to show its fullest potential. Note that both units need at LEAST 500 hours of burn-in to sound their best.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Also, not to criticize your choice of speakers by any means, I know we all hear differently, but frankly IMHO Vienna Acoustics are distinctly medicore when it comes to large soundstaging and imaging, again in my experience. I thinkif you were to allocate 30 K "wisely", you can purchase much better speakers AND an excellent analogue-sounding dac, that would suit your taste far better than your current set up.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Speaker cables , interconnects, and digital cables all affect sound signature of one's system. I would try a full loom of Cardas Reflection cables , or legacy Cardas Golden Cross in true bi wire set up for speakers and Golden Cross interconnects. Both models are smooth, yet detailed and immensely musical.

 

[Glide3]

Lampizator or TotalDac would be on my short list

I have the TotalDac D-1 direct

 

[markramler]

I have a similar condition in one ear that recently became chronic. I have an Aqua Acoustic Formula xHD which is very organic sounding. I tried many different power cords and many were too resolving in the upper frequency range. Transparent Audio G5 Opus and XL power cords were the easiest on my condition without sacrificing the overall sound quality. I also changed my digital cable from Jorma Design to Sablon Audio AES/EBU.

 

[Stefan]

@vermaxis, tinnitus must be difficult, especially for a music lover and enthusiast.

A heads-up qualifier, I am the importer of Pathos and Holo in South Africa, so take my input with a pinch of salt. I also was the agent for Aqua

The Holo May is best used with USB or a very good streamer that allows you to use it with I2S. Also best in NOS or DSD mode. If you set it up well, I would be surprised to get feedback that it sounds spiky and sibilant. I am not suggesting that it is the best DAC among the contenders in absolute terms or in your system specifically but my experience with the Holo range is that it is very evenhanded with no nasties.

Therefore, maybe given my experience with Holo , Pathos (and Aqua), I would look into the following two ideas and then revisit the Dacs you are considering.

1)I would look into the Pathos valves because a customer found the Kratos just a bit too much in the upper mids. (I do not have enough experience with this amp specifically, but I understand the Pathos signature quite well after more than 25 years as their ambassador in SA. The driver valves do have a huge impact on the signature of the amps, so it is worth experimenting with different brands).

2)The advice from @AudioLibertarian could be spot on; I found Cardas, over many years, to relax the sound in the critical upper mids subtly and often works well to take the bite out of systems that otherwise might be tiring.

In summary, I would be surprised if the source of the sibilance is because of any of the dacs listed. The problem might lie elsewhere.

 

[Argonaut]

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Along with LampizatOr and MSB I would recommend Aries Cerat Helene or Kassandra II Reference , both of which are within your budget.

 

[Gregm]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I've been on a DAC journey and thought I would share some impressions of all the DACs I've had in my house. After learning more about what I'm looking for, I'd love some recommendations on what to try next.

Current setup: Innuos Zen Mini MK3 + LPSU -> Classe Delta PRE -> Pathos Kratos (as a power amplifier) -> Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Grand Reference

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc.

Here are brief impressions of what I've owned/tried in my setup:

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Thanks in advance

Taking into account your impressions, I recommend the Ideon audio EOS set - or DAC alone (well within your budget). I listened to this prvately in Munich and found that the music flowed well enough to make me forget I was auditioning a system. I don't remember any aggressive highs and bass energy was impressive -- instead, I was drawn to the music. (I have their flagship DAC)

 

[steve59]

OP, thanks for posting your impressions of the dac's you've tried. I have a pair of VA Beethovens I find to be surprisingly musical considering their size and affordable price. That said the way they're voiced with a recessed mid and detailed treble might make eq your friend with a dac like the T+A. I didn't see you post anything about the Esoteric dac i've been hearing about?

 

[djsina2]

If you don’t need hi-res then Abbas.

 

[christoph]

Thanks everyone so far. I'm located in the Denver area.

@Juiced the Weiss worried me due to a Sabre chipset. I know that it's all about implementation but I was concerned that it would sound aggressive on top, glad to see your recommendation though knowing what I'm looking for

@christoph I'm super curious about the Pacific but getting concrete info from the website seems a bit hit or miss, do you know if there's any way to audition?

You should contact Fred Ainsley from @LampiNA
He's an absolute top bloke.