Daconomics and my DAC upgrade conundrum

[edorr]

My 2 channel system currently consists of CAPS 2.0 server -> Empirical audio offramp 5 -> Trinnov S2 Pro -> Perfectwave MKII DAC -> Jungson JA200 Class A monoblocks -> Evolution Acoustics MM3. Cabling is all transparent audio reference (digital and analog)

With the exception of the monoblocks and the perfectwave DAC, there is not much room for improvement for any other component in the chain. My monoblocks are off limits, which leaves the PWD MKII as the component slated for upgrade. In am making the somewhat speculative assumption that the PWD MKII is of the same caliber as any of the usual suspects in the 4-7K range (including all the stuff that has been discussed in the other threads), so the get a material upgrade I think I need to spend around 10K (which is also my limit).

I have one constraints: volume control, digital volume level display and remote control (this is because I am also integrating my two channel with multi channel system, and I need to know precisely what volume the DAC is at). The totaldac is a contender, but I am a bit hesitant since this is an overseas operation with no local support. The light harmonic would be ideal but helas is too pricey.

I am very receptive to the idea of buying used, but for DACs the economics at work are very different than analog gear. Price performance keeps improving, so a two year old DAC depreciated by 50%is sonically equivalent to a new one for half the price, making the buying used value proposition not very compelling. I am frankly a little hesitant about the wisdom of DAC upgrade period, because of rapid price/performance improvement. I don't mind spending money on audio gear, but hate to take huge depreciation hits, which is somewhat inevitable if you want the latest greatest DAC it appears (with the exception of stuff like the PWD MKII, which is both competitive in in its price class and has a good used market)

Do you agree with my assessment of Daconomics and the PWD MKII? Are there any DACs I should be aware off (new or used)? Should I just wait this out for a year or two given all the development in DACs?

 

[opus111]

From a cursory bit of research I see that the PW DAC uses the Wolfson WM8742 DAC chip. This is a voltage output S-D type device so I agree that its quite likely to be the limiting SQ factor in your set-up.

If you'd tell us the source formats you have then it would be easier to make a recommendation - do you listen mainly to 44k1/16bit or hi-res, or DSD? The reason for asking this is because different digital formats play out best with different technology DACs. Your best solution might well be to have two DACs, not one. As you've looked at LightHarmonic - they incorporate two DACs intemally, but I agree with you about some of your 'DAConomics' points so wouldn't recommend the LightHarmonic in your situation. As I see it, Redbook DACs aren't subject to the improvement in price/performance you've noticed but hires/DSD DACs are. New Redbook-optimised chips simply haven't been introduced in over a decade. That's why it makes sense to me to keep two separate devices though two external DACs probably then require a preamp of sorts to switch them. The upside of that though is you're then not limited to having volume control in the DAC itself.

 

[edorr]

From a cursory bit of research I see that the PW DAC uses the Wolfson WM8742 DAC chip. This is a voltage output S-D type device so I agree that its quite likely to be the limiting SQ factor in your set-up.

If you'd tell us the source formats you have then it would be easier to make a recommendation - do you listen mainly to 44k1/16bit or hi-res, or DSD? The reason for asking this is because different digital formats play out best with different technology DACs. Your best solution might well be to have two DACs, not one. As you've looked at LightHarmonic - they incorporate two DACs intemally, but I agree with you about some of your 'DAConomics' points so wouldn't recommend the LightHarmonic in your situation. As I see it, Redbook DACs aren't subject to the improvement in price/performance you've noticed but hires/DSD DACs are. New Redbook-optimised chips simply haven't been introduced in over a decade. That's why it makes sense to me to keep two separate devices though two external DACs probably then require a preamp of sorts to switch them. The upside of that though is you're then not limited to having volume control in the DAC itself.

DSD is not a factor. I ripped a few 2 channel SACDs that I play converted to PCM through JRiver, and my MCH SACD are converted to 88/24 PCM digital out through S/PDIF of modded Oppo. So I listen to 44/16, 88/24 and a few 96/24 PCM downloads. 44/16 performance is by far the most important consideration.

 

[asiufy]

edorr,

I'm currently testing a MSB Platinum IV DAC. It has all the three things you deemed necessary, volume control (via stepped atenuator, not digital), big and bright display, and remote control.
It's not cheap, but you can configure it the way you want. Unfortunately, not many of those come up in the used market (at least not recently).
I'm seriously considering trading in my dCS Paganini for this, if it tells you anything...



alexandre

 

[rockitman]

I agree with Alexandre. If you are going to upgrade a PS Audio DAC II, going to $10k may only be a nominal improvement with most dac's in that range. Spending more to get an MSB DAc 4 or even their Analog DAC which uses femto clock technology and you don't have to buy the $10k fempto module used for the DAC IV series. This dac is
$7k w/o the power supply upgrade...add $995 for volume control, $3k for the analog Power base...a separate unit. That puts you at $11K msrp. If that was my price point, that would be the way I would go....

http://www.msbtech.com/products/analogDac.php?Page=platinumHome
http://www.msbtech.com/products/analogDacDetail.php?Page=platinumHome

 

[edorr]

Thanks guys. MSB seems like a good suggestion to look into. Also a good example of Daconomics at work - there is a used MSB Platinum DAC III Signature on audiogon for $7K, but a current generation MSB analog DAC probably beats it hands down. Since the DAC IV has been around for some time, I suspect they will show up used occasionally. I will probably stay on the lookout for something in the DAC IV productline to show up used in my budget range.

 

[jap]

Take a look at the Aesthetix Pandora.

 

[asiufy]

Another thing that favours MSB, is that the Platinum IV DAC can be upgraded. I was told you can start with a bare Platinum IV ($6k) and upgrade it to the Signature, with add-ons.


alexandre

 

[edorr]

Another thing that favours MSB, is that the Platinum IV DAC can be upgraded. I was told you can start with a bare Platinum IV ($6k) and upgrade it to the Signature, with add-ons.


alexandre

The problem with that is that at full retail these upgrades are price prohibitive for me. For example, lets say you score a used platinum for $5K. to upgrade to signature level you'd be out say another $10K for a grand total of $15K. Much better getting a used signature for 10K. Question is, do they ever show up? In any event, I looked into it and have a strong suspicion the analog dac is the ticket for the budget contrained among us (inlucding me). Reading between the lines of the writeup about this DAC, it says the analog is as "precise" as the platinum, and has better "time performance", so net net the analog DAC would be the better DAC.

I think they are not saying this very explicitly, is because doing so would kill the platinum and possibly signature models, and split the world into price conscious buyers that would all get the analog DAC for 10K, and buyers with unlimited budget that would get the 40K top of the line platform. Just speculating of course....

It would be tempting to just get an analog DAC - hopefully get some dealer discount and be done. However, I would never do this without in house trial. Do you know if MBS does this?

 

[asiufy]

You're right, the Analog DAC is an excellent choice if you just want to be done with it. It *is* a newer product than the IV, so chances of it appearing on the used market are slimmer than the IV, which is already not very common.

I'm not in the US, so I don't know if MSB does trials like that. The local importer brought it here, and I could audition it for a few days before I decided.

Ah, another option is to look for used dCS gear. These are far more common than MSB, the hard part here is scoring just the DAC, since they often are sold in stacks of 3 or 4 pieces. The one-piece Debussy is excellent, and it's US$ 10k new, but it's also a new-ish product, so doesn't come up often on the used market.

And a third option I just remembered is the Bricasti DAC, that's been getting rave reviews too. It's around US$ 6k new.


alexandre

 

[edorr]

You're right, the Analog DAC is an excellent choice if you just want to be done with it. It *is* a newer product than the IV, so chances of it appearing on the used market are slimmer than the IV, which is already not very common.

I'm not in the US, so I don't know if MSB does trials like that. The local importer brought it here, and I could audition it for a few days before I decided.

Ah, another option is to look for used dCS gear. These are far more common than MSB, the hard part here is scoring just the DAC, since they often are sold in stacks of 3 or 4 pieces. The one-piece Debussy is excellent, and it's US$ 10k new, but it's also a new-ish product, so doesn't come up often on the used market.

And a third option I just remembered is the Bricasti DAC, that's been getting rave reviews too. It's around US$ 6k new.


alexandre

I heard the DCS stack a few years ago and was not impressed. The Debussy is supposed to be good, but not a standout among the usual suspect in the 5-10K range (Bel Canto 3.5, Weiss, Berkeley etc.), and at the high end of the price range. Afraid it might be a lateral move relative to the PWD MKII.

There is tons of DCS gear for sale on audiogon though.

 

[opus111]

So I listen to 44/16, 88/24 and a few 96/24 PCM downloads. 44/16 performance is by far the most important consideration.

I suggest seeing if you can have a listen to this one : http://www.audialonline.com/html/model-s-usb/ I've not heard it myself but it uses the best RedBook DAC and the designer is an innovative engineer who also runs the business. It doesn't contain the volume control though so would need an external pre.

 

[zydeco]

... Also a good example of Daconomics at work - there is a used MSB Platinum DAC III Signature on audiogon for $7K, but a current generation MSB analog DAC probably beats it hands down.....

Yes, this might be a good example of Daconomics - or it might not. Another reasonable assumption might be that it's just as good as DAC IV (or Analog DAC) but not upgradeable. I guess the only way of knowing is to audition side-by-side but, at this level, that's very difficult. Good luck with the search. - Zydeco

 

[edorr]

I'm heavily leaning towards trying the MSB analog DAC, and bite the bullet and buy new if I really like it, and it is a step change improvement over the PWD MKII. In fact, I am on the list to get a demo unit when it is available, which should be in a few weeks time.

Exciting stuff!

 

[rockitman]

Nice, as a PW DACII user myself, the analogue dac sounds like a great package although not future upgradable, which may be just fine if most of your source is pcm. I have it under consideration for next year, maybe sooner. I would be interested in your comparo between the PS Audio and the MSB.

 

[zydeco]

I suggest seeing if you can have a listen to this one : http://www.audialonline.com/html/model-s-usb/ I've not heard it myself but it uses the best RedBook DAC and the designer is an innovative engineer who also runs the business. It doesn't contain the volume control though so would need an external pre.

Opus

Interesting tip. A quick read does indicate that this D/A Converter addressess some critical issues such as electrical noise from the computer. Is there any reason to believe, though, that it'll address the other issues (that you've described in the DCS thread) of NOS converters - namely frequency drop-off and >20Hz?

Zydeco

 

[opus111]

Good question - I had a read of the designer's technical info and I think the answer is most probably 'no' to both. However seeing as it supports data rates above 44k1, the solution to the flatness question is to run it at 88k2 i.e. 2X oversampling with the oversampling filter in the PC. As to the imaging frequencies >20kHz this issue won't be completely solved by running 2X OS but the images will be moved up in frequency by this process where they are less likely to trouble any tweeter. Given the standard model has transformer coupled outputs, I'd expect the trafos to also provide bandlimiting to some degree.

There's a contact form on the website where you can ask questions such as this - better to get the response 'from the horse's mouth' so to speak

 

[edorr]

OK. So I am stil in the market for an upgrade to the Perfectwave MKII DAC, budget is still 10K, and the MSB analog DAC is still on the list for audition. However, I am not a fan of buying new and take a big deprectiation hit unless I have to (it happens). So now a used EMM Labs DAC2X shows up for 10K on audiogon. I am tempted to buy it. Of course, this would be a bit of a crapshoot since I wont be able to audition it. Here is my question: If it was your money / decision, would you roll the dice and get the EMM labs unheard, or audition the MSB analog DAC?

 

[opus111]

EMM Labs means Ed Meitner right? ISTM he's got drunk on the DSD koolaid so I'd wait for the MSB myself.

 

[edorr]

EMM Labs means Ed Meitner right? ISTM he's got drunk on the DSD koolaid so I'd wait for the MSB myself.

Forget about Ed. You are usually more specific on technical details. What is wrong / right with the EMM Labs DAC2X in your opinion.