DartZeel NHB-108 .....

[LL21]

When I started building my dedicated ( 22 x 33.5 x 8.5 ) room I looked for a speaker ( Evolution Acoustics MM3's ) I could build the room around. Of course I found the speakers but I also found the darTZeel products. A musical pleasure for me.

I will say, your combination is definitely one i would love to hear someday. While i respected the combo with the SF Strads, they were not my favorite. But i have heard too many people speak of the special magic in your combination to ignore it. The closest i ever came to "hearing it" was hardly close at all...someone had done recordings of many of the rooms at an audio show...and one of the rooms had Evolution with Dartzeel...the only thing i could say was that of all the recordings of the different rooms made, the Evolution Acoustics/Dartzeel combo was the only recording that made me think someone had recorded the orchestra itself, and i was just listening to the recording. Every other recording sounded like a system in a room.

AGain, that is so far from actually hearing it...it is [admittedly] laughable. And yet, given the comments people have made, and the fact that only this one recording of 12-15 different rooms actually sounded like a recording of live...certainly intrigues me.

 

[fas42]

someone had done recordings of many of the rooms at an audio show...and one of the rooms had Evolution with Dartzeel...the only thing i could say was that of all the recordings of the different rooms made, the Evolution Acoustics/Dartzeel combo was the only recording that made me think someone had recorded the orchestra itself, and i was just listening to the recording. Every other recording sounded like a system in a room.

Which, when you think about it says it all. Even a simple recording setup should convey the sense of the orchestra, whether recording the real thing, or the playback of a recording of such. Forgetting about all the subtleties of room acosutics, etc, etc, if the recording of a recording still creates the illusion then something is working correctly. Or more correctly, there are fewer anomalies disturbing, and disrupting the possibility of the illusion eventuating.

Frank

 

[rad]

I will say.. on some systems... combo / synergy of components do make a difference & the SF Strads may not be a good match, don't know never heard them. I would have to believe the darTZeel would match up well with many a speaker on the market. If it's a speaker that demands a ton of power to drive them at louder db in a large room them maybe not so good of a match for the stereo amp. Get the Mono's... oh hell yes. I would love them, but way beyond my wallet. I have heard the integrated which has a bit more power drive some demanding speakers with absolutely no problem.

You stated the,,,above ...(and one of the recorded rooms had Evolution with Dartzeel...the only thing i could say was that of all the recordings of the different rooms made, the Evolution Acoustics/Dartzeel combo was the only recording that made me think someone had recorded the orchestra itself.)

This should give you some insight as to what I was trying to covey by saying it just sucks you into the music & is very musical. I am no expert on orchestral music & I have only begun to find my way through the vast collections, but with orchestral music many many speakers / systems fall flat on their faces trying to reproduce the textures of the instruments along with the decay, resolution, & dynamics of the music. The Evolution / darTZell do this IMHO very very well & also do great with all types of music.

If you are intrigued, I would highly recommended listening to them. They work for me & many others who have ventured down this path.

 

[caesar]

I love how some idiot on Audiogon with no experience with the amp posts about impedence and darTZeel years ago and it gets repeated. It cracks me up every time I hear that. The darTZeel handles low impedence as well as most amps. If your speakers hover down around 1 ohm, I guess most amps would have a problem with that.

Low sensitivity? C'mon Lloyd are you hearing this from darTZeel dealers or those who do not sell darTZeel? Look, speaker sensitivity and amplifier power requirements are more dependent on room size and other things. If you want to put an 82db speaker on a 160 wpc amplifier in a room 30 x 50, I guess that would be a problem, but you are way off base making blanket statements like this. Its ridiculous.

Also, the reason most darTZeel owners end up with the preamp is because once they own the amp and fall in love with it, the curiousity is peaked on the preamp. To my ears, there aren't too many products out there nearly as good. I proudly import the product into North America and listen to more equipment by other manufacturers than you could imagine. If there is something better, I have not heard it yet. It might not be everybody's cup of tea, but I find it hard to believe that anyone who listens to live music would not appreciate the darTZeel products.

Jtinn,

Let me preface what I say with this: I love the sound of Dartzeel. I have heard it driven by a Playback Source and EMM Acoustics speakers. Guys who have that system are very lucky to have something like that in their lives. And I agree with you that people who have not heard something should not mouth off.

However, having shared audio impressions with Lloydelee over the last year or so, he is passionate and serious about great sound; he is not a shyster out there slandering brands. But let's read (and also read between the lines) about guys who have experience with Dartzeel amplification. Specifically, if you read the Tone Audio review (in their issue 26), the Dartzeel Integrated melted down into an orange puddle when Jeff Dorgay hooked up his CLX speakers to it. When he hooked up a more appropriate speaker, it was amazing. Another relevant example is that of Michael Fremer. He can have anything he wants and his reference system includes much of the stuff you distribute - Playback Designs and the Dartzeel preamp. For some reason, Fremer - who has a fairly small room - is not going with Dartzeel amplification on his 90 db sensitive Wilson Maxx 3's. I believe there is more about amp power than room size- it's more about control of the speaker. And if you listen to live music as a reference, you want your speaker have great control over the bottom end and start and stop on a dime to properly communicate that musical flow.

So with that said, why would a very talented designer even bother designing a low powered amp that costs as much as car? Unless you have the Wilson Alexandria or something like the Scaena, among the more popular mainstream brands, seems to me Dartzeel amplification is a very small niche.

 

[LL21]

However, having shared audio impressions with Lloydelee over the last year or so, he is passionate and serious about great sound; he is not a shyster out there slandering brands.

Caesar - Wow...i did not expect that...thank you. I appreciate your taking the time. As for your comments regarding the DTZL and other speakers and other people's impressions...good to know. Thanks.

And thanks again.

Lloyd

 

[rad]

Jtinn,

Let me preface what I say with this: I love the sound of Dartzeel. I have heard it driven by a Playback Source and EMM Acoustics speakers. Guys who have that system are very lucky to have something like that in their lives. And I agree with you that people who have not heard something should not mouth off.

However, having shared audio impressions with Lloydelee over the last year or so, he is passionate and serious about great sound; he is not a shyster out there slandering brands. But let's read (and also read between the lines) about guys who have experience with Dartzeel amplification. Specifically, if you read the Tone Audio review (in their issue 26), the Dartzeel Integrated melted down into an orange puddle when Jeff Dorgay hooked up his CLX speakers to it. When he hooked up a more appropriate speaker, it was amazing. Another relevant example is that of Michael Fremer. He can have anything he wants and his reference system includes much of the stuff you distribute - Playback Designs and the Dartzeel preamp. For some reason, Fremer - who has a fairly small room - is not going with Dartzeel amplification on his 90 db sensitive Wilson Maxx 3's. I believe there is more about amp power than room size- it's more about control of the speaker. And if you listen to live music as a reference, you want your speaker have great control over the bottom end and start and stop on a dime to properly communicate that musical flow.

So with that said, why would a very talented designer even bother designing a low powered amp that costs as much as car? Unless you have the Wilson Alexandria or something like the Scaena, among the more popular mainstream brands, seems to me Dartzeel amplification is a very small niche.

IMHO, darTZeel is far from being a very small niche!

 

[Wasatch]

I've heard some really good things about the DartZeel gear. Personnely I've heard the Burmeister and CJ gear and both are very very nice, you can't go wrong with them.

 

[cvl]

caesar,

I happen to be one of those, so called "lucky guys", not by luck, but by choice. After many years of moving around into many different high grade amps I decided to " rise above " the rest, and after researching the product , and living with it for several years, I would call them "instruments".
Dartzeel products are instruments, IMO, and people from highend audio gear seem consumed with "watts ".
Once you arrive at that level, the instrument level, I don,t think most folks move back to the high end level.

If that is a niche crowd, then so be it. I appreciate being here. The numbers really don,t matter !

cvl

 

[joeinid]

caesar,

I happen to be one of those, so called "lucky guys", not by luck, but by choice. After many years of moving around into many different high grade amps I decided to " rise above " the rest, and after researching the product , and living with it for several years, I would call them "instruments".
Dartzeel products are instruments, IMO, and people from highend audio gear seem consumed with "watts ".
Once you arrive at that level, the instrument level, I don,t think most folks move back to the high end level.

If that is a niche crowd, then so be it. I appreciate being here. The numbers really don,t matter !

cvl

Thanks for the comments Caesar. I agree with you. The gear that sounds the best to me measures the worst on the specs that some think are important. My Dartzeel 108 does not sound like anything else I've heard.

Joe

 

[Steve williams]

it's all about the first watt, right?

My amps are only 32 watts and prior to that 18 watts

 

[andromedaaudio]

I am one of those unfortunate deaf guys who likes watts and big VA transformers .
I cant comment on dartzeel ive never heard the amps , but i will go out to a show someday

caesar,

I happen to be one of those, so called "lucky guys", not by luck, but by choice. After many years of moving around into many different high grade amps I decided to " rise above " the rest, and after researching the product , and living with it for several years, I would call them "instruments".
Dartzeel products are instruments, IMO, and people from highend audio gear seem consumed with "watts ".
Once you arrive at that level, the instrument level, I don,t think most folks move back to the high end level.

If that is a niche crowd, then so be it. I appreciate being here. The numbers really don,t matter !

cvl

 

[mep]

It’s all about the first watt in terms of sound quality, but not about ultimate power capability. Loving the sound of the first watt doesn’t mean that you may have enough watts after that to stay in love. It all depends on the efficiency of your speakers.

 

[Steve williams]

I agree Mark.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have not much experience with lamm unfortunately , i cannot comment , i also think it matters what music you listen too and how loud you listen, and loudspeaker efficiency of course .
But i usually like to have a lot powerreserves so dynamics are not restricted in anyway, instantcurrentdelivery , it might be a bit overdone in my case , but better safe than sorry
You had the Krell 750 mcx yourself as i understood

 

[microstrip]

it's all about the first watt, right?

My amps are only 32 watts and prior to that 18 watts

Steve,
When you have 95dB/W speakers you can even speak about the first miliwatt!

 

[LL21]

Steve,
When you have 95dB/W speakers you can even speak about the first miliwatt!

Agree...in fact, i very nearly went with Lamm 2.1 SETs (18watts) since my speakers are 95db and the only reasons i did not do it was: a) long-term flexibility if i switch speakers...unlikely for years to come but one never knows...i have long thought i might be tempted one day to run rockports arrakis (second hand of course) which run well with Gryphons. and b) i wanted to be able to drive the system for video action flicks and deep house/electronic music with ultimate slam at high club volume (which, tbh, i pretty much never do anymore...but when i do, i really want to enjoy it. )

 

[andromedaaudio]

Well but even then ????

Last week i went to a audiodealer who demontrated with blumenhoferhorns ,around 100 db (50.000 euros big model )
First we listened to them with nagra 300 b low on watts , through zanden 3000 and zanden digital ,and later we hooked up 250 watt octave monos ref series .
We both concluded we heard a improvement in authority and overall sound quality with more power in this particular case the octave and nagra have different character off course , but that was the impression

 

[mep]

My speakers are rated at 92dB sensitivity and recommend amplifier power from 20 watts to 1000 watts. You would think that with a sensitivity of 92dB that having high-powered amp wouldn’t really matter, but you would be wrong. I used to have the Jadis Defy 7 MKII amp which has six 6550 tubes per channel with an output of 90-100 watts. Switching over to a SS amp that had over twice as much power per channel as the Jadis made a huge difference. It’s like the speakers woke up and the bass became much better even though the built in sub is powered by its own 1800 watt amp. Tube lovers love to say that tube watts sound twice as loud as SS watts, but I promise you they don’t on my speakers.

Bottom line is that I do believe power matters. I don’t know if you can have too much of it to tell you the truth. I would rather have overkill than under kill any day of the week.

 

[LL21]

Andromedaaudio/MEP

I have not actually done the test myself (low powered SET vs high powered)...but i have often read about experiences just like what you both describe regarding the benefits of 'pure power'. And i supposed that is another (more articulate) way of basically describing my 2nd reason for going with higher powered Class A SS. I am sure there are high quality lower powered amps with enormous muscle and endless reserves...the Vitus 50 watt/channel SS amps which i believe more than a couple reviewers including Jeff Fritz (who often posts here) have noted sound incredibly powerful even in comparison to reference level multi-hundred watt monos from other high-end manufacturers.

 

[jtinn]

Jtinn,

Another relevant example is that of Michael Fremer. He can have anything he wants and his reference system includes much of the stuff you distribute - Playback Designs and the Dartzeel preamp. For some reason, Fremer - who has a fairly small room - is not going with Dartzeel amplification on his 90 db sensitive Wilson Maxx 3's. I believe there is more about amp power than room size- it's more about control of the speaker. And if you listen to live music as a reference, you want your speaker have great control over the bottom end and start and stop on a dime to properly communicate that musical flow.

Room size is one of the most important things, but the type of music one listens to as well as how loud one listens are also important factors. When you have over a killoowatt of power and switch to an amplifier with 1/10th the power, you will lose something. It just depends on what you value most.

By the way, Mikey is currently using darTZeel amplification.

So with that said, why would a very talented designer even bother designing a low powered amp that costs as much as car? Unless you have the Wilson Alexandria or something like the Scaena, among the more popular mainstream brands, seems to me Dartzeel amplification is a very small niche.

With all due respect Caesar, low powered? You must be kidding. 160 wpc is now low powered? Is it quantity or quality that matters? Why should wpc have anything to do with price?