David Karmeli's Natural Sound in Utah

[spiritofmusic]

David’s second, smaller room has changed quite a bit since I was last here. He has worked on the acoustics by constructing a front wall of wooden diffusers. In this room is a pair of vintage RCA theater horns, original LAMM LP2, L2, and ML2 electronics, and a one-of-a-kind prototype turntable of extremely high mass. Note the huge platter relative to the LP. It has an air bearing and thread drive.

The room sounded much better than I remember it a year ago. The front wall treatment has made a big difference, but I think there is still work to be done. David is still working on the system, but it sounded excellent.

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Sorry, where's the NO POLITICS! brigade now?

 

[howiebrou]

Sorry, where's the NO POLITICS! brigade now?

why? Because there is a trump photo? Who cares? Look at the turntable!

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't really give a shit, Dave could have his room plastered w Hilary Clinton pics for all I care, but I'm afraid two of some of the most posted words on this forum is NO POLITICS!

 

[howiebrou]

I don't really give a shit, Dave could have his room plastered w Hilary Clinton pics for all I care,

You have to visit his bedroom for that.

 

[ddk]

A lot of those speakers look like 2 x 15" woofers in a ported box and a horn. Much like my PAP Trio 15. Accept my woofers are open baffle.
What do you think the sealed woofers bring compared to open.

Aside from the expected differences in character the benefit of the ported box in this case is in the frequency response.

david

 

[howiebrou]

I don't really give a shit, Dave could have his room plastered w Hilary Clinton pics for all I care, but I'm afraid two of some of the most posted words on this forum is NO POLITICS!

Anyway I don't feel the post was political. YMMV.

 

[bonzo75]

Last poster I had as a school kid was Steffi Graf. And so that my parents don't tease me I added Arnold (commando) and Stallone (Rambo) to pretend I was just decorating the wall with celebrities.


Good to know what the old boys get to

 

[bonzo75]

A lot of those speakers look like 2 x 15" woofers in a ported box and a horn. Much like my PAP Trio 15. Accept my woofers are open baffle.
What do you think the sealed woofers bring compared to open.

With sealed you can have smaller woofer doing a higher decibel, so gives enough oomph with box distortion. Open baffle sounds more natural but loses weight, so to balance that you have to have bigger woofers, usual dual

 

[bazelio]

A lot of those speakers look like 2 x 15" woofers in a ported box and a horn. Much like my PAP Trio 15. Accept my woofers are open baffle.
What do you think the sealed woofers bring compared to open.

The open baffle bass response will show earlier and steeper rolloff. With PAPs, you can go with a quad 15" arrangement for best results.

 

[wil]

Anyway I don't feel the post was political. YMMV.

I knew there was something in that picture making me vaguely nauseous. Was it the sheer mass of the turntable? Or something on the wall...?
Political? oh yes.

 

[Kingrex]

Aside from the expected differences in character the benefit of the ported box in this case is in the frequency response.

david

I thought the horn crowd was down with ported boxes due to some peaks or dips. And what about integration of drivers.
I'm just asking.

 

[Kingrex]

On the drive to the airport, David asked me if I learned anything from this trip. It’s an interesting question. The first time I came, I wanted to meet David and check out the new turntable I had ordered. I also wanted to hear his big system. I left that visit with a completely new understanding of what was possible with an audio system. Everything was new to me then, and I was quite overwhelmed by the experience. It resulted in a completely new system.

I have lived with that new system for a year now. As it has settled, and I have acclimated to the sound, I continue to appreciate just how different it is from what I had. I also get new insights to my music collection. I am upgrading my power delivery and the system continues to improve. I arrived at David‘s house with a better appreciation of what a system can do and I have become a better listener.

I enjoy reading Karen Sumner’s various essays on the forum, particularly most recent one about Space: the Final Frontier. I told David and Tim that during this visit, I gained a better appreciation for and understanding of the portrayal of space from David’s systems.

David’s big system is simply astonishing in the way the ambience from the recording is presented. I brought Arthur Grumiaux’s recording of Beethoven’s Violin Concerto on Phillips. The large space between the plane of the speakers and the front wall was completely filled by the orchestra. Grumiaux was front and center playing his violin. The timpani was far back behind him. The string sections were to either side and the brass and woodwinds were in the middle. The stage was vast and layered. The musicians were well located within the space and there was a sense of the boundaries. The energy from the instruments expended outward in all directions and filled the room completely. The massive speakers disappeared. It was as though we were seated in the middle of the orchestra section, back about fifteen rows.

David later played an Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass recording on Pablo. We were suddenly transported to the jazz club or café with Ella right there in the room and Joe Pass seated on a stool next to her. Closing my eyes, I was in the room with them. Jim Smith refers to this as presence. Karen Sumner calls it space. David refers to it as ambience. Whatever you wanna call it, it is that quality which makes you believe you are in the presence of the musicians occupying the space and understanding the ambience of the setting. Tim refers to this as the context of the performance. David’s big system and the JBL have it in spades.

The next day I played a recording of Peter Schreier singing Winterreisse. This was on the JBLs. The volume was a little bit too high, so I turned it down and then suddenly everything clicked and he was singing right in front of the piano just behind the speakers. There was no pinpoint imaging, there was no black background, there were no stark outlines. There was just the energy of the performers up there in space in front of us. I heard his performance with Al M and my father a few years ago. My memory is strong and the illusion at David’s was utterly convincing. I now better understand why Karen Sumner refers to space as the “final frontier”.

The information is all on the recording. The challenge is to find the components that can deliver it and set it up in a way that you don’t corrupt it and lose it. All of David systems present space well. Some of them do it extraordinarily well. After the tone and dynamics are right, the ambience is the final piece that makes you believe you’re there with the musicians.

EDIT: I don’t think this sense of ambience from a system is achievable separately from tone and dynamics. I have to think about this a little bit more, but my suspicion is that it basically comes down to resolution being presented naturally, and if you get one you get all three for a complete and holistic listening experience, just like at the concert hall. These qualities are interrelated and cannot be separated from each other.

Did you hear "space " on the smaller speakers or did it only come alive with the very large.
I get you heard some with the small. But when you really hear it, you know it.

I have only heard real space with the very large Altec Theater speakers. Mikes does very well too. Not as much as those Altec did.

Can a small speaker make this happen.

And is it more about the room that makes the space or is it more about the speaker.

What about that Tiger Box at Axpona. Was that all about creating space. Can you get a massive all encompassing sound by setting yourself in a very small well proportion room with the right speaker.

 

[Kingrex]

I sat in a competition car one time. The owner had to turn the engine on to keep the power high enough to run the system. I have never experienced a sytem like that ever again. Crystal clean. Completely surrounding you with music. And the impact of the bass turned your body to jello. Oddest feeling.

 

[ddk]

I thought the horn crowd was down with ported boxes due to some peaks or dips. And what about integration of drivers.
I'm just asking.

Don't know where you heard that but it's not true. Ideally a bass horn is the best but where do you get a good one from today and if you found someone to build them the size for a 20-30hz horn is prohibitive. That's where you see them built into the house.

There are no integration issues when speakers are designed built and set up right, the JBLs were in the small room with seating position 6' away from the listener's head and no problem with integration. In this instance they were bouncing off basically resonant wood panels without and other drivers without losing integration.

With sealed you can have smaller woofer doing a higher decibel, so gives enough oomph with box distortion. Open baffle sounds more natural but loses weight, so to balance that you have to have bigger woofers, usual dual

Given proper design the main issue with sealed boxes is efficiency vs the same ported box. There's a world of difference in the texture, tone and naturalness of a large short throw light paper woofer vs a small heavy long throw cone. The speed isn't even comparable, light paper cones are lightening fast and no lag between them and compression driver. You don't lose weight with open baffle when you actually have a proper baffle, a little square slab isn't going to cut it.

david

 

[PeterA]

Did you hear "space " on the smaller speakers or did it only come alive with the very large.
I get you heard some with the small. But when you really hear it, you know it.

I have only heard real space with the very large Altec Theater speakers. Mikes does very well too. Not as much as those Altec did.

Can a small speaker make this happen.

And is it more about the room that makes the space or is it more about the speaker.

What about that Tiger Box at Axpona. Was that all about creating space. Can you get a massive all encompassing sound by setting yourself in a very small well proportion room with the right speaker.

King Rex, I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I’m talking about the ambience on the recording which tells the listener the character the space in which the musicians are playing. This is not about the speaker. This is about the whole system having a level of resolution that allows the listener to hear that information. And it begins with good basic power delivery to the components which I am learning about right now in my own system.

The challenge is not losing it through poor gear choices, room treatments, wire choices, or set up decisions. The information is there on the recording. I heard it in varying degrees on all of David’s systems.

I have also heard the effect injected into systems by cables that enhance certain frequencies, but in this case everything sounds the same and it’s really not the same quality of naturalness. In fact it is unnatural and immediately tells me that I’m listening to is a high-fi system.

This is one of the big lessons I learned with this most recent visit to Utah. The information is on the recording. The challenge is to leave it intact and deliver it to the listener.

 

[morricab]

Don't know where you heard that but it's not true. Ideally a bass horn is the best but where do you get a good one from today and if you found someone to build them the size for a 20-30hz horn is prohibitive. That's where you see them built into the house.

There are no integration issues when speakers are designed built and set up right, the JBLs were in the small room with seating position 6' away from the listener's head and no problem with integration. In this instance they were bouncing off basically resonant wood panels without and other drivers without losing integration.

Given proper design the main issue with sealed boxes is efficiency vs the same ported box. There's a world of difference in the texture, tone and naturalness of a large short throw light paper woofer vs a small heavy long throw cone. The speed isn't even comparable, light paper cones are lightening fast and no lag between them and compression driver. You don't lose weight with open baffle when you actually have a proper baffle, a little square slab isn't going to cut it.

david

Yes, that's why I use very light, high sensitivity mid/bass drivers in my horn and TQWT speakers. One of the drivers has a membrane that weighs only 7 grams!

 

[bonzo75]

King Rex, I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I’m talking about the ambience on the recording which tells the listener the character the space in which the musicians are playing. This is not about the speaker. This is about the whole system having a level of resolution that allows the listener to hear that information. And it begins with good basic power delivery to the components which I am learning about right now in my own system.

The challenge is not losing it through poor gear choices, room treatments, wire choices, or set up decisions. The information is there on the recording. I heard it in varying degrees on all of David’s systems.

I have also heard the effect injected into systems by cables that enhance certain frequencies, but in this case everything sounds the same and it’s really not the same quality of naturalness. In fact it is unnatural and immediately tells me that I’m listening to is a high-fi system.

This is one of the big lessons I learned with this most recent visit to Utah. The information is on the recording. The challenge is to leave it intact and deliver it to the listener.

My first usage of the term transparency to recordings dates back to Oct 2018, and used it many times since then with people confusing it with see through transparency, so I even differentiated that. Despite repeating, there were many misinterpretations including tone, resolution, but few talking about the ambience being reflected of the records rather than the ambience artificially created by the system, which is more of a constant independent of the recording. I then concluded that those who haven't heard transparency to recordings will not be able to relate to it and hence the confusion.

The Oct 2018 comes from experimenting with good recordings at the General's starting summer.2018, then hearing some at Bill's when he moved to a simple system with Vyger and crossoverless speakers with a very low priced mastersound integrated (used price under 2k iirc). Every LP was a different concert. I also heard that through devore orangutans with NAF 2a3 integrated. I guessed it was simple circuits and crossovers that was probably helping..

I also then found this review from Marshall Nack that conveyed the same thing on Vyger Atlantis:

"All tables color the sound, one way or another. I find a reliable indicator of the degree of this is if the sound remains the same from record to record. The Best Record Labels That's not what I heard with the Atlantis. One after the other, I lined up original pressings from the most highly regarded LP labels: RCA, Capital, Vanguard, Lyrita, Decca, Argo, even modern LPs on Harmonia Mundi and EMI from the twilight of the LP era. All sounded splendid, all sounded different, and all displayed the skills of each engineering team. Each label's house sound was clear as day."

http://www.vyger.com/wp-content/uploads/reviews/recensione14.pdf

I also visited Tang in Oct 2018 and heard a lot of transparency to recordings on his. The horns universum does it the most I have heard in any system with Tang's, and the Uni system has a 3k table with 400 GBP Audio Technica Art 33, and 1k+ Art 9, so I became a fan of beryllium horn drivers. I love a lot of things that Altecs do but they don't do transparency to recordings the same. I also heard Vyger in systems that it does not do it in. While tables affect the sound a lot, I concluded that for transparency to recordings, it is the speaker, electronics, and possibly cables that matter more, though I never experimented with cables, as some of these had audiophile cables and some simple, I never got into the specifics. For me Devore and Tannoy are the compromise contenders at equal level but Devores do it and Tannoys don't. It was also great at Anamighty sound http://zero-distortion.org/analog-shoot-anamighty-sound/ with small speakers and Thrax integrated.

I never heard it on Wilsons and Magico type systems, but I hear it on my friend's Avalon after he put in the Soulution preamp between Allnic phono and power, though not same extent as above mentioned systems

Not that I don't like systems that don't do it to same extent, though I would prefer it. It requires a lot of investment in well recorded vinyl to justify that approach. The interesting thing is that with something as small as Devore, which does not have complete extension, transparency to recordings can make you feel you are listening to more concerts than a system with greater bass, treble extension which is forcing sound, but not doing that recording ambience. Hearing the contrast in the same room with 20k and 65k speakers was quite eye opening.

 

[Kingrex]

What I hear when I listen the the large Altec is the venue the recording was made in. With Paul Simon Live in Central Park, the park was in his room. All the people, the hustle and bustle. You could feel the crowd. The hum of the equipment and band. I cried. Its one of only two times I have teared up in front of a system. Other large systems sound very real and natural. But I never heard the recording venue, the space the recording was take in, presented as such a part of the music playback system as with Howards very large horns. 6 feet wide with a 15 cell multicell on top. I wish I had a room to put it in. I was also somewhat intimidated at the thought of having to tune such a system. That could be a rabbit hole all the way to the far east.

 

[Kingrex]

David, what do you think of the half size Altec with 15" drivers. Then a 10 cell wood, multi cell horn on top.

 

[ddk]

David, what do you think of the half size Altec with 15" drivers. Then a 10 cell wood, multi cell horn on top.

Buy an original Altec with metal horn and live with it before going the DIY route. Personally I don't care for wooden multi-cells nor do I see the point when original metal Altec horns are readily available and for a lot less money than wood copies of unknown origin and quality. The woofer cabinet is of even bigger concern, buy a vintage one in original condition!

david