Design vs. Parts

[dallasjustice]

How about best design with best parts ?

I know you wrote this in jest.

My point with this thread is to simply demonstrate how all of us, myself included, can fall victim to audiophilia myopia. The good news is that this is not a terminal disease and there are some excellent therapies available to those with an open mind.

 

[Bruce B]

How about best design with best parts ?

Do you have an example? You can definitely bet it's not inexpensive! We've already seen the insides of the FM Acoustics and other top brands with noted compromises in the parts.

 

[rockitman]

Do you have an example? You can definitely bet it's not inexpensive! We've already seen the insides of the FM Acoustics and other top brands with noted compromises in the parts.

Pass XS amps...
Purity Audio Designs is another...although I am not sure if it is the best design or not for a preamp.

 

[Occam]

or worse yet, the designer that says he attained the last 5% of performance by using 3" piece of a certain type of wire between the PCB and the jack. red flags for me, I usually run the other way. contrast that with a designer with substantial cred like Nelson Pass, designing the .8 series of amps he was quoted as saying the individual parts mattered little in relation to the advancement made overhauling the entire circuit topology.

Do you mean like when Bruno Putzeys of Hypex replaced, at no cost, the input wiring harness, for the Ncore 400 amplifier modules? The subjective change was, IMO, quite substantial. If I were constrained to using the original Mogami wiring harness, which is totally adequate spec wise, I wouldn't still own the amp. [I actually use different STP cable]. No one would accuse Bruno of being a boutique parts sort of a guy....

Dunno about the Ncore amp modules use of tin plated contact Molex connectors for the input signal harness and board connectors. I've already have the gold plated replacements in hand. The reason for the change isn't specifically immediate sound quality, but sound quality in that I know that within 3-5 years, living in NYC, the contacts will corrode; leastwise that what I experienced when I worked in medical electronics and in discussions with Molex engineers. Or simply talk to an game arcade service technician.
Using the gold plated as opposed to tin plated Molexs for the low level signal connectors would have added < $0.30 / amp channel and minimized those inevitable signal integrity issues down the road. Then again, those failures will manifest themselves when the modules are certainly out of warranty, and will probably no longer be supported.
From my experience, circuit design is of prime importance, because if you don't get that right, you've imposed a limit on potential. Next would come circuit layout/implementation, as that's where noise and parasitics originate. And lastly would come the specific component choices, as long as they meet the technical constraints of the previous 2 considerations. If you believe that 2 caps (or wires, resistors, connectors, or vacuum tubes, etc....) meeting your technical constraints wont change your subjective metrics, save yourself the money. FWIW

 

[puroagave]

Do you mean like when Bruno Putzeys of Hypex replaced, at no cost, the input wiring harness, for the Ncore 400 amplifier modules? The subjective change was, IMO, quite substantial. If I were constrained to using the original Mogami wiring harness, which is totally adequate spec wise, I wouldn't still own the amp. [I actually use different STP cable]. No one would accuse Bruno of being a boutique parts sort of a guy....

Dunno about the Ncore amp modules use of tin plated contact Molex connectors for the input signal harness and board connectors. I've already have the gold plated replacements in hand. The reason for the change isn't specifically immediate sound quality, but sound quality in that I know that within 3-5 years, living in NYC, the contacts will corrode; leastwise that what I experienced when I worked in medical electronics and in discussions with Molex engineers. Or simply talk to an game arcade service technician.

of course you'd say that you're in the 'wire business' ...and yes Bruno is an engineer who's work I admire, the mola mola amps are excellent.

 

[microstrip]

or worse yet, the designer that says he attained the last 5% of performance by using 3" piece of a certain type of wire between the PCB and the jack. red flags for me, I usually run the other way. contrast that with a designer with substantial cred like Nelson Pass, designing the .8 series of amps he was quoted as saying the individual parts mattered little in relation to the advancement made overhauling the entire circuit topology.

Puroagave,

Interesting . Can you provide us with a link to these Nelson Pass statements? They show a clear change from his previous known positions - he is known for using old NOS semiconductors and even developing new specific parts for his circuits.

 

[puroagave]

Puroagave,

Interesting . Can you provide us with a link to these Nelson Pass statements? They show a clear change from his previous known positions - he is known for using old NOS semiconductors and even developing new specific parts for his circuits.

it was from a video interview between steve rochlin and scott hull covering CES 2014, scott quotes Nelson.

starts at 3:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGn91D34KZI

 

[Bruce B]

Pass XS amps....

Really?? every single cap, resistor, PCB board, blah.. blah is the absolute best? I seriously doubt that.

 

[rockitman]

Really?? every single cap, resistor, PCB board, blah.. blah is the absolute best? I seriously doubt that.

I'm sure you are right with regard to Pass. The Purity Ultra Pre is a different matter. All parts from what I can tell are top rate. Check out their comparison guide on the site. It's lists all significant components.

 

[mep]

I actually stated in a thread on this forum many moons ago that great design/mediocre parts trumps mediocre design/great (boutique) parts every single time. No contest, we have a winner-Ding! Ding! Ding! The best of both worlds is to have a great design built with great parts in the areas of the circuit where you are really going to hear their effect. Of course to some people, that would be every single part right down to the fuse and fuse holder.

 

[JackD201]

I have commissioned a few DIY amps in my time. In one I had nothing but the top V-Caps. I do find that mixing and matching caps works well, IMO even better. That's a lot to say for me as I really like Vs especially the copper foil. That said, the best results came from using many different tpes, namely Vs used alongside Mundorfs and even Clarity.

 

[microstrip]

I actually stated in a thread on this forum many moons ago that great design/mediocre parts trumps mediocre design/great (boutique) parts every single time. No contest, we have a winner-Ding! Ding! Ding! The best of both worlds is to have a great design built with great parts in the areas of the circuit where you are really going to hear their effect. Of course to some people, that would be every single part right down to the fuse and fuse holder.

Mark,
I would love to have your definitions of mediocre and great design, and also of mediocre and great parts. IMHO we can not grade equipment this way, as except for a few exceptional failed pieces that should only be used as door stops, the sound performance of high-end equipment is system and tuning dependent.

 

[microstrip]

I know you wrote this in jest.

My point with this thread is to simply demonstrate how all of us, myself included, can fall victim to audiophilia myopia. The good news is that this is not a terminal disease and there are some excellent therapies available to those with an open mind.

Yes, I read that one of the main symptoms of the disease is considering that the others suffer from audiophilia myopia and we have an open mind. IMHO there is no posssible therapy!

 

[mep]

Mark,
I would love to have your definitions of mediocre and great design, and also of mediocre and great parts. IMHO we can not grade equipment this way, as except for a few exceptional failed pieces that should only be used as door stops, the sound performance of high-end equipment is system dependent.

Francisco-Maybe mediocre isn't the correct choice of word for lots of components although you can't design and build a product to a cheap price point without compromising on its design to some degree. For example, would you choose an ARC SP-14 built with the best parts known to man over an ARC REF 3 built with so-so parts? Would you rather have a pair of Marantz Model 5 amps built with the original parts or a pair of Dynaco MKIII amps built with top notch audiophile approved parts? I hope you get my drift.

 

[Geardaddy]

Good for you Dallas. When I first started in earnest in this hobby, I remember some old dogs telling me room and setup was 80% of the battle. Philes are bewitched by Gucci products while neglecting neglecting foundational elements. This transcends the parts versus design dialectic.

Time and phase correctness are huge in my book. When timing and phase are off, so is the music. I have always been drawn to speakers that get this right. When you add subs to the equation, it is HARD to do....at least for me....

 

[dallasjustice]

I agree that's it hard to integrate subs without them sounding like they stick like a sore thumb. The problem with most folks that try to do it is that they don't take care to get the time and phase correct. Subs really cannot be properly integrated lacking the ability to delay the main R/L speakers and a mastery of REW.

Good for you Dallas. When I first started in earnest in this hobby, I remember some old dogs telling me room and setup was 80% of the battle. Philes are bewitched by Gucci products while neglecting neglecting foundational elements. This transcends the parts versus design dialectic.

Time and phase correctness are huge in my book. When timing and phase are off, so is the music. I have always been drawn to speakers that get this right. When you add subs to the equation, it is HARD to do....at least for me....

 

[c1ferrari]

In some instances, parts ARE the design

 

[mep]

I agree that's it hard to integrate subs without them sounding like they stick like a sore thumb. The problem with most folks that try to do it is that they don't take care to get the time and phase correct. Subs really cannot be properly integrated lacking the ability to delay the main R/L speakers and a mastery of REW.

Can you please explain the chain of electronics involved in delaying the sound coming from your main R/L speakers?

 

[dallasjustice]

Can you please explain the chain of electronics involved in delaying the sound coming from your main R/L speakers?

I use a windows computer with Jriver. I go out the computer over USB into a DEQX HDP4. The DEQX does the delay, crossovers and a little speaker correction. In my case, I need about 19ms of R/L delay to time align frontwall sub and a little more for rear wall sub.

Of course, there was a lot of work in REW to dial in the correct phase response at the crossovers for both subs. Nyal did all the heavy lifting.

 

[mep]

I use a windows computer with Jriver. I go out the computer over USB into a DEQX HDP4. The DEQX does the delay, crossovers and a little speaker correction. In my case, I need about 19ms of R/L delay to time align frontwall sub and a little more for rear wall sub.

Of course, there was a lot of work in REW to dial in the correct phase response at the crossovers for both subs. Nyal did all the heavy lifting.

Right. I forgot that you strictly have a digital system so messing around with the signal in the digital domain is fine with you. People who own analog sources in addition to their digital source(s) aren't automatically fired up about converting their analog signal to digital and then back to analog again.