Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Elliot G.]

Totally. There is no magic involved in this stuff. No one is claiming otherwise.

There are lots of different opinions and approaches. Go with what works for you.

Actually there aren't. Like I said I don't want to start an arguement but someones feelings dont make it true.
People like what they have and what they did thats perfect for them but trust me it's not all there is.

 

[Tangram]

This thread has taken an interesting tack. I recently had an acoustics consultant in my room for a day and we measured it several times with different combinations of the treatments I have (skyline diffusers, bass traps, ceiling absorption, first side reflection absorption). The consultant and I were consistently surprised that there was no discernible differences with and without the treatments, so I’m less surprised by these comments than I otherwise would be. That said, I have a large area rug in the room which is 100% necessary to reduce slap echo, so I AM surprised when I see tile floors in listening rooms.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting, Peter. Glad to hear of your efforts and results.

I'm pretty sure it was me saying for years now that custom rooms and aftermarket/custom acoustic treatments are completely unnecessary and a superior acoustic coupling/interface between speaker and room are all that's needed in a reaonably even minimally furnished room?

You and others have been saying it. I listened to people who had different approaches and then started experimenting for myself. In the process, I discovered a lot and changed my priorities because I was listening to a lot of live music at the same time. It’s also about the time I stopped reading magazines and began to question the value of the audio glossary of terms.

 

[PeterA]

Actually there aren't. Like I said I don't want to start an arguement but someones feelings dont make it true.
People like what they have and what they did thats perfect for them but trust me it's not all there is.

I am missing your point. You don’t think there are a lot of different opinions and approaches? How do you explain the wildly different room set ups?

I’m not claiming they all sound great. I have no idea. But I know what I learned through my own experimentation and my room started sounding better every time I removed some audiophile absorption device.

I also agree with you that some people have a lot of knowledge and experience in this era and get superior results.

 

[stehno]

You and others have been saying it.

And here I thought I was the only one with a bloody nose.

I listened to people who had different approaches and then started experimenting for myself. In the process, I discovered a lot and changed my priorities because I was listening to a lot of live music at the same time. It’s also about the time I stopped reading magazines.

Yeah, it ain't so easy breaking free of the grips of some of these preconceived narratives.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I consider all of those treatments. They can all be used to great effect when setting up a room. Such rooms are generally more comfortable to spend time in also. I eliminated audio file acoustic treatments like absorption panels, and tube traps.

People refer to stuff as magic or black art. Setting up a room is a skill that could be learned. I agree that some people are very good at it. I think one needs a curious mind, patience, and the ability to recognize and hear differences in order to solve problems. One also needs a target to aim for.

I think the path we are forced towards is set up right back at the original determination of the space and its function and the intended vibe or spirit of the room.

So the choice in the context of the room and whether we want a listening space that feels primarily like an integrated living space or if we choose to go for a dedicated specialist room where we can go more free for all with hi-vis room treatment brings in the requirement for magic or choosing everyday objects to perform a hidden function of controlling sound propagation in the room. It’s like an added layer of difficulty (or foolhardiness depending on your position).

The psychology of how we shape or frame the listening experience is not even always a conscious choice but can be a reflex response to lead us to create spaces that we feel comfortable in and can enable us to connect better to the music and the sound and that has a huge factor into the nature of the listening experience beyond purely sonic parameters.

Some want more of that high key listening drama and tension by setting up a room that says let the audiophile experience begin. Whereas others might feel they want music in the room to be in a less seemingly artificial or unusual or less theatrical environment.

The psychology of how we set up a room and the nature of room treatments we choose and the relationship of the standpoints (where we sit) and the focal points (where we place the speakers) isn’t just a one size fits all easy set of calculations or determinations.

The subtle challenges in achieving ultimately great listening experiences are context related to the room, the gear and the listener. Working with the space and it’s vibe is probably even more influential than the RT value in the end.

 

[stehno]

I think the path we are forced towards is set up right back at the original determination of the space and its function and the intended vibe or spirit of the room.

So the choice in the context of the room and whether we want a listening space that feels primarily like an integrated living space or if we choose to go for a dedicated specialist room where we can go more free for all with hi-vis room treatment brings in the requirement for magic or choosing everyday objects to perform a hidden function of controlling sound propagation in the room. It’s like an added layer of difficulty (or foolhardiness depending on your position).

The psychology of how we shape or frame the listening experience is not even always a conscious choice but can be a reflex response to lead us to create spaces that we feel comfortable in and can enable us to connect better to the music and the sound and that has a huge factor into the nature of the listening experience beyond purely sonic parameters.

Some want more of that high key listening drama and tension by setting up a room that says let the audiophile experience begin. Whereas others might feel they want music in the room to be in a less seemingly artificial or unusual or less theatrical environment.

The psychology of how we set up a room and the nature of room treatments we choose and the relationship of the standpoints (where we sit) and the focal points (where we place the speakers) isn’t just a one size fits all easy set of calculations or determinations.

The subtle challenges in achieving ultimately great listening experiences are context related to the room, the gear and the listener. Working with the space and it’s vibe is probably even more influential than the RT value in the end.

And then there are those who strive to build a space shuttle when all we need is a bicycle to get to the corner market.

 

[PeterA]

I think the path we are forced towards is set up right back at the original determination of the space and its function and the intended vibe or spirit of the room.

So the choice in the context of the room and whether we want a listening space that feels primarily like an integrated living space or if we choose to go for a dedicated specialist room where we can go more free for all with hi-vis room treatment brings in the requirement for magic or choosing everyday objects to perform a hidden function of controlling sound propagation in the room. It’s like an added layer of difficulty (or foolhardiness depending on your position).

The psychology of how we shape or frame the listening experience is not even always a conscious choice but can be a reflex response to lead us to create spaces that we feel comfortable in and can enable us to connect better to the music and the sound and that has a huge factor into the nature of the listening experience beyond purely sonic parameters.

Some want more of that high key listening drama and tension by setting up a room that says let the audiophile experience begin. Whereas others might feel they want music in the room to be in a less seemingly artificial or unusual or less theatrical environment.

The psychology of how we set up a room and the nature of room treatments we choose and the relationship of the standpoints (where we sit) and the focal points (where we place the speakers) isn’t just a one size fits all easy set of calculations or determinations.

The subtle challenges in achieving ultimately great listening experiences are context related to the room, the gear and the listener. Working with the space and it’s vibe is probably even more influential than the RT value in the end.

Nice post Graham. It makes me think of the important distinction between listening for sounds and the listening experience of live music. I used to value aspects of sound as described in the glossary of terms. The more I listened to live music, the more I started thinking in terms of the holistic music listening experience. And this informed the approach to how I set up the system and room for the listening experience at home. I had a new target.

To paraphrase someone who knows a lot more about this than I do, you want to maximize the information leaving the speakers and once in the room, you want to manage that energy, not eliminate it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Some want more of that high key listening drama and tension by setting up a room that says let the audiophile experience begin. Whereas others might feel they want music in the room to be in a less seemingly artificial or unusual or less theatrical environment.

so would you view a purpose built concert hall as seemingly artificial or unusual or a theatrical environment ?

and a listening room built and tuned to act like one also seemingly artificial or unusual or a theatrical environment?

as if going to the effort to optimize a listening room somehow infers something artificial. whereas a performance hall get's a pass.

are the best mastering and mixing studio's casually assembled based on a typical living room? recording studio's? they are tools designed to deliver. nothing casual.

not saying we can always predict with certainty how any space sounds. it's a serious process to optimize any space. but i think it's poppycock to assign undue credit to one room, and denigrate others, just because the listener does not value deep bass extension with excellent articulation, or a great soundstage with authority and scale. some of us want it all.

 

[the sound of Tao]

And then there are those who strive to build a space shuttle when all we need is a bicycle to get to the corner market.

I think that there’s no one best way to get there but there is a best fit for each.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Nice post Graham. It makes me think of the important distinction between listening for sounds and the listening experience of live music. I used to value aspects of sound as described in the glossary of terms. The more I listened to live music, the more I started thinking in terms of the holistic music listening experience. And this informed the approach to how I set up the system and room for the listening experience at home. I had a new target.

To paraphrase someone who knows a lot more about this than I do, you want to maximize the information leaving the speakers and once in the room, you want to manage that energy, not eliminate it.

There is a trick for getting us into the zone where we hear what we need to hear and it’s not that same trick for all of us. I’ve come to a similar position Peter in that getting to being seated in whole listening and putting analysis into the back seat is (for now) what I’m really needing. Being able to pull into analysis when I need rather than it being more of a default mode has been my challenge and I find getting the room feeling normalised and more relaxed helps me do that.

But that’s just my recipe, there are so many different things and ways (and all valid and that’s important to recognise) that we are all using and getting out of this.

 

[the sound of Tao]

so would you view a purpose built concert hall as seemingly artificial or unusual or a theatrical environment ?

and a listening room built and tuned to act like one also seemingly artificial or unusual or a theatrical environment?

as if going to the effort to optimize a listening room somehow infers something artificial. whereas a performance hall get's a pass.

are the best mastering and mixing studio's casually assembled based on a typical living room? recording studio's? they are tools designed to deliver. nothing casual.

not saying we can always predict with certainty how any space sounds. it's a serious process to optimize any space. but i think it's poppycock to assign undue credit to one room, and denigrate others, just because the listener does not value deep bass extension with excellent articulation, or a great soundstage with authority and scale. some of us want it all.

Not saying one approach is better Mike and wasn’t denigrating any approach, perhaps I could have said more surreal design but it’s all just that it’s all context related to individual needs and expectations.

Doing a needs analysis about the how and why we do what we do and how it relates to our aims would probably make much more sense of our preferences in general. I had a mate who would have a double shot of espresso and pour a bourbon and settle into his listening seat and put on music and then clutch the armrest on the chair as he launched into music bliss with some rough blues and plenty of volume. For him there was anticipation and excitement and full on sensation, whereas I’m more a dissolve into the space and the music listener. We were both loving music and sound but needed different vibes in our setups to access that.

So we can look to a concert hall and look to the materials, the forms, design balances and layout and deconstruct it and put that into the context of a living room… but you don’t have to recreate the hall itself but just abstract the spirit of it and distill the experience.

Without oversimplifying studio control rooms aren’t built for the function of relaxing and listening to music, they are designed to create a perfect workable recording environment for the performers and to allow engineers to work and analyse and for recording process workflow. We are creating a completely different headspace for recording than in home based listening.

Thats another thing, some are wanting to be transported to the hall or the recording session and others are about bringing the experience into their rooms. So many things play into the success of the experience for each of us I guess and that’s where the for some the primary thing may be about getting the vibe right at some cost to ultimate acoustics.

Through the 80’s and 90’s I worked in commercial film and television production and that’s likely the biggest reason why I’ve always made listening spaces at home to feel the least like a studio control room… not bringing work home with me was a conscious choice and while I’ve moved on to different work that’s stayed with me.

But that’s just what I need, we’re all here creating the best circumstances we can for ourselves with what we have to work with and what works differently for each of us is important to understand and appreciate as well. It’s why there is no one best way. I love that you want it all and you’ve worked so hard to make that work for you. It’s just awesome there are so many good examples here of pretty much every way we can possibly go in this.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not saying one approach is better Mike and wasn’t denigrating any approach, perhaps I could have said more surreal design but it’s all just that it’s all context related to individual needs and expectations.

Doing a needs analysis about the how and why we do what we do and how it relates to our aims would probably make much more sense of our preferences in general. I had a mate who would have a double shot of espresso and pour a bourbon and settle into his listening seat and put on music and then clutch the armrest on the chair as he launched into music bliss with some rough blues and plenty of volume. For him there was anticipation and excitement and full on sensation, whereas I’m more a dissolve into the space and the music listener. We were both loving music and sound but needed different vibes in our setups to access that.

So we can look to a concert hall and look to the materials, the forms, design balances and layout and deconstruct it and put that into the context of a living room… but you don’t have to recreate the hall itself but just abstract the spirit of it and distill the experience.

Without oversimplifying studio control rooms aren’t built for the function of relaxing and listening to music, they are designed to create a perfect workable recording environment for the performers and to allow engineers to work and analyse and for recording process workflow. We are in creating a completely different headspace for recording than a home based listening. Thats the other thing, some are wanting to be transported somewhere else and others are about bringing the experience into their rooms. So mss as my things play into the success of the experience for each of us I guess.

and you know these things about how all our rooms work how?

that greater musical truth is found in a more casual haphazard approach than in a planned purpose built approach? and you assign 'good' to a small living room, and 'artificial' to the planned tuned approach? that somehow it's a construct, and the small living room is not?

i've had a small good sounding room which was a 12' x 18' x 10.5' Den. was in there for 9 years (1994-2003). great intimate sound. but could not do scale, authority or deep bass. limited SPL's to get to 'live'. but anyone who heard it loved how things sounded. how could anything get any better? had the Rockport Sirius III and the Kharma's and Tenor's. great sound.

my current room is way more capable, does deep bass, soundstages and scales the heights, and better at intimate too. but my world view in 2003 did not see beyond that room. then i started to want more. eventually after going backwards for a few years i did reach my ultimate room goals. for me.

so i see both sides of this. it was tempting to view where i was as truth. and it was based on my view from there. but not from where i am now. yet i respect where i was that it was something special. and had it's attributes.

Through the 80’s and 90’s I worked in commercial film and television production and that’s likely the biggest reason why I’ve always made listening spaces at home to feel the least like a studio control room… not bringing work home with me was a conscious choice and while I’ve moved on to different work that’s stayed with me.

But that’s just what I need, where all here creating the best circumstances we can for ourselves with what we have to work with and what works differently for each of us is important to understand and appreciate as well. It’s why there is no one best way. I love that you want it all and you’ve worked so hard to make that work for you. It’s just awesome there are so many good examples here of pretty much every way we can possibly go in this.

i'm with you that there is more than one way to do it. but throwing around words like "artificial" is just wrong. and polarizing.

i think it's tempting to confuse (1) a purpose built, dedicated space with (2) particular types of gear, or maybe (3) a particular musical viewpoint. they are three different things. and it's also a mistake to assign some sort of immersive attribute to a living room beyond what the user might bring. neither one is exclusively successful. the purpose built larger space demands more attention from the system builder since it's got less living accessories to tame it naturally. i can agree there. more efforts are required to humanize it. but with a higher performance ceiling. can reproduce bigger music, handle higher SPL's naturally, and be way more physical and immersive. it has another gear.......or three.

 

[Carlos269]

and you know these things about how all our rooms work how?

that greater musical truth is found in a more casual haphazard approach than in a planned purpose built approach? and you assign 'good' to a small living room, and 'artificial' to the planned tuned approach? that somehow it's a construct, and the small living room is not?

i've had a small good sounding room which was a 12' x 18' x 10.5' Den. was in there for 9 years (1994-2003). great intimate sound. but could not do scale, authority or deep bass. limited SPL's to get to 'live'. but anyone who heard it loved how things sounded. how could anything get any better? had the Rockport Sirius III and the Kharma's and Tenor's. great sound.

my current room is way more capable, does deep bass, soundstages and scales the heights, and better at intimate too. but my world view in 2003 did not see beyond that room. then i started to want more. eventually after going backwards for a few years i did reach my ultimate room goals. for me.

so i see both sides of this. it was tempting to view where i was as truth. and it was based on my view from there. but not from where i am now. yet i respect where i was that it was something special. and had it's attributes.

i'm with you that there is more than one way to do it. but throwing around words like "artificial" is just wrong. and polarizing.

i think it's tempting to confuse (1) a purpose built, dedicated space with (2) particular types of gear, or maybe (3) a particular musical viewpoint. they are three different things. and it's also a mistake to assign some sort of immersive attribute to a living room beyond what the user might bring. neither one is exclusively successful. the purpose built larger space demands more attention from the system builder since it's got less living accessories to tame it naturally. i can agree there. more efforts are required to humanize it. but with a higher performance ceiling. can reproduce bigger music, handle higher SPL's naturally, and be way more physical and immersive. it has another gear.......or three.

From my experience, every acoustically engineered or treated room that I have listened in has sounded like the room was stealing some of the energy from the music. It is intuitive that if you have additional embedded absorption, diffraction, and diffusion that those acoustic elements will rob some of the excitement and detail from the music, is is simply physics at work. Early reflections create intimacy and most of the purposed built rooms that I have experienced just lack that ethereal quality.

 

[Al M.]

From my experience, every acoustically engineered or treated room that I have listened in has sounded like the room was stealing some of the energy from the music. It is intuitive that if you have additional embedded absorption and diffusion that those acoustic elements will rob some of the excitement and detail from the music, is is simply physics at work. Early reflections create intimacy and most of the purposed built rooms that I have experienced just lack that ethereal quality.

On the contrary, uncontrolled reflections blur detail. I know from experience in my room.

 

[Carlos269]

On the contrary, uncontrolled reflections blur detail. I know from experience in my room.

You do of course realize that as humans we use spatial cues for localization? There are no uncontrolled reflections. What treated rooms provide are dampened, attenuated, or muted reflections.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

On the contrary, uncontrolled reflections blur detail. I know from experience in my room.

and you never know what you are missing until you get past that. and then get past the next issue, and the next. many more doors open, walls disappear.

but not taking that first step is much easier. just tell yourself it's all ok. i'm righteous. that can work. and no worries. just don't assume that you know everything. and that everyone else is wrong.

it's not about any particular thing. it's about your musical vision and where you want to go. then go there.

 

[Al M.]

You do of course realize that as humans we use spatial cues for localization? There are no uncontrolled reflections. What treated rooms provide are dampened, attenuated, or muted reflections.

Well, you're simply wrong on this one. I have extensive experience when it comes to having to tame uncontrolled reflections, which is what they are.

And by the way, in a properly treated room spatial clues are *better*, not worse.

 

[Al M.]

but not taking that first step is much easier. just tell yourself it's all ok. i'm righteous. that can work. and no worries. just don't assume that you know everything. and that everyone else is wrong.

Exactly.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, you're simply wrong on this one. I have extensive experience when it comes to having to tame uncontrolled reflections, which is what they are.

Congrats on being certified by Al, Al

Post in thread 'Visit to Chris to See Magico M9 and VYGER and Pilium in Southlake, Texas'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...d-pilium-in-southlake-texas.38525/post-958758