Besides drivers characteristics, the main difference between these designs is the acoustic impedance - the horn matches the acoustic impedance of the drivers to the room air, creating a very different type of sound.
Yes its a interesting subject
Besides drivers characteristics, the main difference between these designs is the acoustic impedance - the horn matches the acoustic impedance of the drivers to the room air, creating a very different type of sound.
After a long hiatus from WBF it was really nice to read this thread and Steve's. As others have said in this thread (or Steve's) I'd also like to extend a thanks to David for his very generous advice in emails. If David is so kind I can only imagine that this is the type of experience/adventure that would be right up my ally, valuing many (or all) of the things that David wrote about. I too am on my way to the horn/SET land, though a different approach from David's.
Hello hvbias,
My only comment is not to dismiss vintage outright in favor of the modern, horn speakers haven't come a long way long other technologies (though also debatable!) if anything they've regressed. Enjoy the journey!
david
Western electric best room in Munich today, made everything else sound broken. Still some more rooms to go though, but the big viva masterhorn or whatever, tune audio at 220k lol, and others left a lot to be desired. Second best room was audio exklusiv stats, think these are much better than Logan and quads at lower price, recommended originally by the late and great Mr acoustat. After that, even if I am forced to rank it will be tough. In a rant mood right now. Better to log off. Big Goebbel have promise, if made to sound a bit more natural in proper setting they can fit in Mike's style room I think
Hello hvbias,
My only comment is not to dismiss vintage outright in favor of the modern, horn speakers haven't come a long way long other technologies (though also debatable!) if anything they've regressed. Enjoy the journey!
david
We didn't have any time to discuss audio and sound with Mike, it was really a quick tasting menu of 4 tt setup more than anything else so here's some addition to Mike's impressions.
The 3 main TT's are setup to convey and communicate the music uniquely in their own tongue, think of them as different conductors and orchestras interpreting the same music. Yes the American Sound performs at an extremely high level but going through them the way we did can give one good, better, best impression very quickly but with time and a chance to go back to each tt/arm/cartridge/phono combination they'll reveal more of their uniqueness. This richness of variety that one can have with vinyl playback is the main reason that I haven't pursued R2R, and then there's the very limited and high priced software.
We only sampled a little classical, jazz and vocal selection (see below) and not everything on each tt. The system's FR is near 20hz - 20khz and everything we listened to is very much within that range so there's nothing missing in the sound. There's an ocean of difference between the wholesome presentation of an all tube SET based system vs the somewhat parsed (IMO!) way of solid state electronics giving the impression of extra detail, takes time to adjust from one to another. Bass presentation is also part of our individual philosophy and understanding of reality, personally I find SETs can deliver the most natural bass among different topologies and Lamms deliver it all, even my subs are driven by SETs for best results. Whatever one's tastes I doubt anyone would argue the differences in presentation between tubes and ss. Then there's the personal approach and relationship to enhanced bass in setup as it's own entity or not. Many enjoy that extra overhang, octave, extension or whatever you call it when there's a bass note which admittedly can be very impressive in the context of a system and might enhance one's sense of reality but I find that impression a distraction and diversion from the music and something I'm never impressed by individually at a live venue. I have eliminated that impressive element from my system to keep the whole experience natural and real. This will very much affect one's perception of system's FR.
Volume was also mentioned in a couple of threads, I see volume and presence as part of the real and natural experience so when the system is capable I prefer listening at close to live levels during more intense listening sessions. Of course a lot of listening is also done at lower and low levels...
Music we played;
Classical
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Vocal
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Jazz
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david
Thank you, thats giving some great insight Mike... I've not experienced a system that has so comprehensively moved beyond its usual typology constraints and limitations so that it actually can be closer to being all things. You can always tell by the comments of your visitors that may just be the case and that is just awesome. I wonder if use of music as an essential benchmark always leads us to a shared place if we travel far enough.
I thought Steve's comment about David's system being all about the midrange was also really interesting as well as it mirrors the Animas trait of also being anchored in the mid point and being fundamentally midcentric which is maybe about it being essentially such a directed point of focus in the mid range... a bit like dropping a pebble in the water and having the greatest definition at its centre with the attention diffusing ever so slightly but equally as the pattern moves out to the extremes which kind of anchors you in the calm and stillness of its centre.
I also remember an earlier comment by Ked about horns breathing outwards effortlessly which also made a lot of sense to me in terms of this seamless continuity of action.
Thanks for reviving this thread Peter, great to get these perspectives of David’s system again.David, I am revisiting this interesting thread. Your post is a wonderful expression of your priorities in terms of a system reproducing the music and how you want to experience it. It is one approach. There are others also valid. I enjoy reading clearly articulated points of view.
It’s good to revisit these posts for me as I realise what I wrote really doesn’t capture what I was thinking here. I definitely misrepresented the idea I was trying to get across and probably because I simply didn’t fully understand it myself.Graham,
This is a very interesting post. I read Steve’s comment about the mid range and my experience was a little bit different the two times I went to visit David and to hear his various systems. To me, it was not about the mid range. It was about the whole range of frequencies presented in a way that did not bring attention to any of them. The key with David’s systems is that the high and low frequencies are not enhanced or spotlit like some other systems I have heard. One of the characteristics of natural sound is balance, and David seems to prioritize this when assembling his systems.
The way one perceives this reflects the reference on which the comment is made. When I listen to live music, of any genre except for rap or electronica, there is a lack of emphasis on frequencies. In this sense, David’s main system and all of his systems represent what I hear when listening to live music in terms of frequency balance.
to me it was definitely about the midrange. I’ve never heard anything as good. The bottom end was good but needed supplement by a sub. I’m referring primarily to the Bionors. You are likely talking about the entire system. I was referring to the Bionors
This is an enjoyable thread based on your own personal opinion , it’s is not objectivably great , as there is no agreed scale for thatThis is a great thread -- thanks for bringing it back up.
to me it was definitely about the midrange. I’ve never heard anything as good. The bottom end was good but needed supplement by a sub. I’m referring primarily to the Bionors. You are likely talking about the entire system. I was referring to the Bionors
Can you define what you mean by singularity, which to me is a ‘’black hole “,that sense of singularity and coherence
You mean:- in complete balance based on your personal auditory and perceptual preferences
‘glorious based on your own opinion and how you perceive based on historical personal memory
Coherence in that the presentation is of a piece from top to bottom and singularity more as a state of connectedness to the musicCan you define what you mean by singularity, which to me is a ‘’black hole “,
and “coherence“ are you talking time alignment or something else ?
I feel I need to further clarify. Listening to David's system. it was the mid range that. mesmerized me.I totally agree about the top end being in balance. It's just for my ears most of music is mid range and David's system was the best Ive ever heard. Top end indeed was in complete balance. Bottom end with Bionors only was sightly anemic , requiring the use of subs, Having said that they were well integrated with the Bionors so no big deal . In fact David only told me he was using subs when we went behind the speakers and I saw a separate Lamm amp driving a very large sub. In summary I am not making any point except to say the midrange was simply the best I have ever heard in a system. Lamm, BTW is known for how good his midrange sound is and I felt the overall benefit was magnified by a speaker that is 112 db efficient (or was it 115 db efficient?). David played a Chesky recording of Rebecca Pidgeon and I swore that was a real as anything I ever heard. When she opened her mouth to sing it was truly a revelation as I could hear hear her tongue touching the top of her palate as well as the sound of her lips touching one another. I could hear her swallowing and breathing during the song. She was in the room. That was the point I was trying to make as for me I feel most of the sound in recordings dwells in the midrange.Awsmone, you forgot the silly emoji. Not based on my opinion, it is my opinion based on my own perception of my lifelong experiences living in this world, nothing to do with my preferences. It is an observation. Steve simply observed it differently and now I see he was talking about the Bionors only without the subs, but even then, to me it was in complete balance from 50 Hz on up, including the high frequencies.